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#73118 - 12/17/06 01:05 PM Re: Convention on the Rights of Person w/ Disabili [Re: ]
StarlightAngel
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Registered: 04/25/01
Posts: 11013
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i THOUGHT you were originally talking about down's syndrome and whether a person with DS should be assumed competent to decide to have children?

imho seizure disorders and DS carry different issues, unless you think all ppl w/ DS should also be allowed to make financial and degal decisions...?

too many topics, i'm confused.
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#73132 - 12/17/06 03:20 PM Re: Convention on the Rights of Person w/ Disabili [Re: ]
Davyd
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Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 4112
Loc: People's Republic of Amerika
Originally Posted By: TeddysMom
Davyd, How many people have the time, the cash, and the where-with-all to address these issues? Especially people in third world countries with less access to the internet and the telephone?
The rational behind this is that human rights should be enjoyed by all and that having a disability should not deprive anyone of specific rights because of their disability - and far too often they do.


If you have a strong enough why... you'll put up with any how.
~Some cool dead guy who's name I can't spell and I'm to lazy to look up how to spell it but not so lazy I can't quote him inaccurately~ thanks rob
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#73170 - 12/17/06 04:42 PM Re: Convention on the Rights of Person w/ Disabili [Re: ]
Davyd
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Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 4112
Loc: People's Republic of Amerika
Originally Posted By: TeddysMom

Some people are simply unable to advocate for themselves because they do not have the tools to do it. It is not a matter of choice.


If they are unable to do this simple thing then possibly they should have a caretaker. Advocating only requires one to be able to speak up.
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#73241 - 12/17/06 08:39 PM Re: Convention on the Rights of Person w/ Disabili [Re: ]
Davyd
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Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 4112
Loc: People's Republic of Amerika
lol well now you've not given me many choices here Susan. I can either be the devils friend or naive... tough choice! lol

Actually I do think it pretty much that simple. "IF" you can't do something as simple as advocating for your own rights as a human being then there are probably other things you need to concern yourself with first.

Having worked in nursing facilities, I know that if asked almost everyone there would say they wanted to go home. Even if they had no home to go to. They are totally unable to care for themselves in even the most basic areas. Sending these people to an imaginary home would be sentencing them to their death. They tried to decentalize care here back in the 60's. They shipped hundreds of folks out of a totally self sufficient facility to area nursing homes, group homes, etc. One of the local nursing facilities I worked at had one of these fellers. Paranoid schiz who was in his late 50's. He choked to death after stealing a peanut butter sandwich off another residents plate and stuffing the entire thing down his own throat. In all the nursing facilities I worked at I heard very familiar stories. The residents weren't anywhere near able to left alone and the facilities weren't equipped to handle them. Bad things happened.

If you are poor and live in a rural setting then I'd respectfully suggest you worry first about getting food, clothing and decent housing... then you can be concerned about other things.

Whether the parents of the young man you talked about were wrong or not is a judgement I'm willing to leave up to the parents. IF they were physically abusive then let him sue them in the courts. We already have laws about that sort of thing.

The last story you related about the elderly couple sounds like the eventual result of a nanny state bureacracy. And when the woman winds up dead her children will sue the state for negligence.


Edited by Davyd (12/17/06 08:40 PM)
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#73268 - 12/18/06 08:15 AM Re: Convention on the Rights of Person w/ Disabili [Re: ]
StarlightAngel
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Registered: 04/25/01
Posts: 11013
Loc: a box on the table
Originally Posted By: TeddysMom
As to rights vs responsibilities. People with disabilites should have the right to have children as should anyone. No one should be forced to have an abortion or to give up their child for adoption on account of disability.

On the otherhand, I do think that inability to provide proper care for a child is reason to not be allowed to have a child. But how can that be determined?

Poor people who clearly cannot afford to have children have them all the time. Do we want a law that sets an income requirement of people being able to have children? How poor is too poor to have a child? How are we going to prevent them from having children? Sterilize them? Force abortions? Force them to have birth control injections? That only prevents poor women from having children - what about preventing poor men who will never support their children from inpregnanting women who might not qualify as poor until they have unsupported children?


ummm, did i say anyone should be prevented from having children SOLELY on the basis of disability? that was not my question.

if your son decided he wanted to father a child, would you support him in that?
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#73382 - 12/18/06 08:11 PM Re: Convention on the Rights of Person w/ Disabili [Re: ]
dowdy
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Registered: 04/12/00
Posts: 3344
OK27 states in the US,in 1972, had as a criteria for leaving a mental hospital that the person be sterilized, even though completely cured. Not sure how many states still have this as a law. It may still be on the books just not enforced. So you are admitted as a voluntary patient but to leave the mental institution you had to undergo a sterilization.
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#73453 - 12/19/06 11:46 AM Re: Convention on the Rights of Person w/ Disabili [Re: dowdy]
ParaDude
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Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 33855
Loc: United Provinces of America
35 years ago...still living in the past.
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#73469 - 12/19/06 12:35 PM Re: Convention on the Rights of Person w/ Disabili [Re: ParaDude]
flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
History does have a way of repeating itself, though. Being aware of the past is important in that respect, no?
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#73470 - 12/19/06 12:43 PM Re: Convention on the Rights of Person w/ Disabili [Re: flicka]
ParaDude
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Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 33855
Loc: United Provinces of America
Originally Posted By: flicka
History does have a way of repeating itself, though. Being aware of the past is important in that respect, no?


I agree, it's what I kept telling you in regards to Iraq but you kept telling me that I shouldn't keep bringing up the mistakes that were made.

The difference is, Iraq is ongoing in today's world.
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#73473 - 12/19/06 01:07 PM Re: Convention on the Rights of Person w/ Disabili [Re: ]
ParaDude
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Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 33855
Loc: United Provinces of America
I think that there are instances when a person should be sterilized if they are proven to be incompetent or lack that ability to properly care for a child.

Hell, I know of AB drug abusers who should face the same consequences as well...tie their tubes (men and women) and do it in a manner that if they can prove to be competent later in life they can have the tube tying thing reversed.

We need to have a license in this world for just about everything, a way to prove we are "able"...I think this should include bringing a child into this world.

But heh...that's just me.
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#73474 - 12/19/06 01:18 PM Re: Convention on the Rights of Person w/ Disabili [Re: ParaDude]
flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
Originally Posted By: ParaDude

I agree, it's what I kept telling you in regards to Iraq but you kept telling me that I shouldn't keep bringing up the mistakes that were made.

The difference is, Iraq is ongoing in today's world.

What the f uck are you talking about?
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#73475 - 12/19/06 01:23 PM Re: Convention on the Rights of Person w/ Disabili [Re: flicka]
ParaDude
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Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 33855
Loc: United Provinces of America
lol...you basically told me the same thing I told you in regards to Iraq. I said that "if we didn't talk about, didn't acknowledge the mistakes made in Iraq then we were destined to repeat them". I said this AFTER you told me that there was no need to keep rehashing the mistakes and you went further to ask me what you consider a more important question, "what do we do now?".

Perhaps you don't remember, but I do.

Neither here nor there, we seem to agree now.

Btw - I don't think you have to type [censored], f uck, I believe that Xuxan got that non-offensive word reinstated along with [censored] and a few others...just don't say "retard" or she might spaz.


Edited by ParaDude (12/19/06 01:24 PM)
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#73476 - 12/19/06 01:25 PM Re: Convention on the Rights of Person w/ Disabili [Re: ParaDude]
ParaDude
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Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 33855
Loc: United Provinces of America
Wow...I sit corrected...the bad word ban is one again.
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#73478 - 12/19/06 01:33 PM Re: Convention on the Rights of Person w/ Disabili [Re: ParaDude]
flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
Originally Posted By: ParaDude
Wow...I sit corrected...the bad word ban is one again.

You're fucking crazy! lmao
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#73479 - 12/19/06 01:39 PM Re: Convention on the Rights of Person w/ Disabili [Re: flicka]
ParaDude
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Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 33855
Loc: United Provinces of America
Heh...you can't say [censored] but you can say fucking. Verbs are allowed...woot!
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