#41157 - 06/15/06 05:23 PM
Re: Remembering Katie McCarron
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cass
Member
Registered: 03/01/00
Posts: 3505
Loc: WA
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ummmm PD....the father and grandfather sent them the photos. excuse me, the grandfather sent them to NDY for them to be posted online. i just double checked the email.
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#41159 - 06/15/06 06:12 PM
Re: Remembering Katie McCarron
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walkin and rollin
Member
Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 417
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If autism had nothing to do wih her death, why is it being publicized as such?
Bail is set to ensure the accused will show up for trial. She surrendered her passport and isn't a threat to society. Bail isn't set on whether or not she's guilty- at this point, she's innocent (legally). There've been several children killed in this area in recent years, most of whom were abused for months or years before the fatal blows, yet only one of the murderers has received a life sentence. As far as I know, none of the children were disabled. If you feel the sentence this mother eventually receives is unjust, work to change the laws.
Using pictures of a dead child to further your cause is just that- using the child. I hope this mother is treated the exact same as any mother who has done what she did. Anything else is discrimination. I also hope that all people who kill their children are punished harshly.
Can anyone cite any stistics on the sentences of those found guilty of killing a disabled vs able child? I'd prefer an unbiased source, if possible.
walkin
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#41161 - 06/15/06 07:58 PM
Re: Remembering Katie McCarron
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cass
Member
Registered: 03/01/00
Posts: 3505
Loc: WA
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the point here is the reactions this murder is generating. there is a lot of sympathy for the mom due to the child's disability. if anyone here thinks judges and juries are truly impartial and not swayed by current bioethic trends, i think you're not watching very closely.
the media coverage in this case has been focusing on the mom and her stress (supposedly due to the child's autism). the grandfather's point is this is a beautiful life that was lost. that is why he wanted people to see her picture. he doesn't want the focus on autism, but on the child herself.
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#41163 - 06/15/06 08:49 PM
Re: Remembering Katie McCarron
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ParaDude
Member
Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 33855
Loc: United Provinces of America
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Originally posted by cass:
ummmm PD....the father and grandfather sent them the photos. excuse me, the grandfather sent them to NDY for them to be posted online. i just double checked the email.
I agree 100% with what Walkin and Rollin said.
With all the 100s of cases of children dying because of abuse, neglect, or out right murder, I find it pathetically sad that the only time we hear of any real outrage is when a disabled child is killed.
Before anyone says, "it's because of public sympathy towards the parent that kills", I have heard the same sympathy expressed when a Mom kills an AB child, there are always those who will step up to try and explain it because society as a whole has a hard time grasping the concept of a Mother actually doing such a heinous thing.
When we as a community (a disabled community) get so vocal over these kinds of things society has a whole begins to think of us as "special", in need of extra protection. This kind of pandering makes us look weak and needy and imho it is no wonder we find it hard some times to get the AB world to look at us as equals, rather than gimps.
_________________________
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#41164 - 06/15/06 10:20 PM
Re: Remembering Katie McCarron
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walkin and rollin
Member
Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 417
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Wouldn't years of community service learning better choices, then helping other parents make better choices be a better punishment for this mother? It is after all what Xuxan suggested as an appropriate punishment for the parents here in OR who locked their autistic son in, then burned the house down around him. He was an 'adult' at 19, but I don't see any other differences in the two cases. Okay, one is a NDY poster child and one isn't, but that wouldn't make a difference, would it? And that would be the punishment for any parent who kills their child, since we don't want to treat the killers of AB kids any differently. No jail time for child-killers, just community service.http://newmobility.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001150
The statistics I was asking about were about the differences in sentencing of dis child killers vs AB child killers, since Mr. Soul seems to think there are differences. Sincw his perspective comes from a different view than mine, I'm curious to know whether his instinct is right.
walkin
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#41165 - 06/15/06 10:21 PM
Re: Remembering Katie McCarron
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cass
Member
Registered: 03/01/00
Posts: 3505
Loc: WA
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you know PD, given your stance on "cure", you really ought to read what parents of autistic children are saying in this case. they are saying EXACTLY what you say all the time: there is no cure, we accept our children for what they are.
i really think you are so opposed to NDY and a poster here that you are unwilling to look at this realistically. a child was murdered. her murderer (a doctor, no less) is claiming stress. well, andrea yates was stressed. did her argument fly? no. yet this mom's does. why?
try reading some of the stuff on this sad incident and then get back to me. you accused NDY of exploiting the child when, in reality, her grandfather trusted them to get her photo and story out to ppl to counteract the media reports she was "in pain," "a burden," etc. etc.
NDY has done exactly what he asked. no more. what did you expect them to do? say, "no, sorry, we will be accused of this or that?" good grief.
and i disagree with you. the public is outraged in child abuse deaths. they are just surprisingly more "understanding" if the child is disabled. however, if the parent is "mentally disabled" and the children AB (as i believe was the case in andrea yates, for example), there is little sympathy.
a quote from one of the blogs created after katie's grandfather put her picture out there is below. you could have written this, pd. in fact, you have over and over. please get past your prejudice against an org/poster and look at the real issue here.
"I think that if Katie’s beautiful smile can get more parents of autistic kids—and more of the society at large—to step back from the rush to cure and to fix and to normalize, and to see our kids as the whole, precious human beings that they are, she will have done an immense good in her brief time on Earth."
BTW, what outrage here, pd? that is exactly the point. this story has caused little outrage, much less than many other child murder cases. she has been dead a month and did you see it on cbs?
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#41166 - 06/15/06 10:30 PM
Re: Remembering Katie McCarron
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cass
Member
Registered: 03/01/00
Posts: 3505
Loc: WA
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walkin, NDY is not using her as a poster child. they were asked by the grandfather to do what they did. no more. i am on their listserv.
you got stats you didn't want. you obviously have net access. find the ones you want. it is no secret dis children are abused more. as for the abuser's sentence? well, is that really the point? isn't it enough that dis children are abused more and society tends to "understand" the poor parent's stress?
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#41168 - 06/15/06 11:57 PM
Re: Remembering Katie McCarron
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ParaDude
Member
Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 33855
Loc: United Provinces of America
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Originally posted by Xuxan:
When I suggested community service for the parents who locked their adult son into the house, it was not known yet that they deliberately set the house on fire.
With that known, I don't think community service is warranted. Initially it was just thought that they used foolish methods to keep their son safe when they went out. That his death was a horrid accident, not a premeditated murder.
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#41169 - 06/16/06 12:13 AM
Re: Remembering Katie McCarron
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ParaDude
Member
Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 33855
Loc: United Provinces of America
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Originally posted by cass:
you know PD, given your stance on "cure", you really ought to read what parents of autistic children are saying in this case. they are saying EXACTLY what you say all the time: there is no cure, we accept our children for what they are.
i really think you are so opposed to NDY and a poster here that you are unwilling to look at this realistically. a child was murdered. her murderer (a doctor, no less) is claiming stress. well, andrea yates was stressed. did her argument fly? no. yet this mom's does. why?
try reading some of the stuff on this sad incident and then get back to me. you accused NDY of exploiting the child when, in reality, her grandfather trusted them to get her photo and story out to ppl to counteract the media reports she was "in pain," "a burden," etc. etc.
NDY has done exactly what he asked. no more. what did you expect them to do? say, "no, sorry, we will be accused of this or that?" good grief.
and i disagree with you. the public is outraged in child abuse deaths. they are just surprisingly more "understanding" if the child is disabled. however, if the parent is "mentally disabled" and the children AB (as i believe was the case in andrea yates, for example), there is little sympathy.
a quote from one of the blogs created after katie's grandfather put her picture out there is below. you could have written this, pd. in fact, you have over and over. please get past your prejudice against an org/poster and look at the real issue here.
"I think that if Katie’s beautiful smile can get more parents of autistic kids—and more of the society at large—to step back from the rush to cure and to fix and to normalize, and to see our kids as the whole, precious human beings that they are, she will have done an immense good in her brief time on Earth."
BTW, what outrage here, pd? that is exactly the point. this story has caused little outrage, much less than many other child murder cases. she has been dead a month and did you see it on cbs?
Unless the case has some sensational quality to it then we don't hear about it. We would need a cable channel focusing 24/7 on child abuse and neglect and "accidental" death just to cover a fraction of those cases. Who would watch? I'll answer. Nobody.
I think if this grandfather wanted what you say he does then the last place I would have run to was NDY, an organization that has made it a mission to exploit people and their pain. He did what he did tho and will have to suffer the consequences of that, and one of those consequences will be that this little girl will now be used as a political pawn, and that imho is almost as sad as the mother killing her child.
Btw, what does this mother being a pathologist have to do with anything at all?
Also, while I am at it. This mother is out on bail. So are others who have committed murder and other violent crimes, it's called a presumption of innocence (yes even those that confess are still presumed innocent until after a speedy trail...go figure). Do I like that kind of system? Well I probably would if I was accused of a crime I didn't committ but I am not particularly fond of it.
Do you think that only the people who are accused of crimes against disabled people get bail? The truth of the matter is people get bail all the time, and one of the mitigating factors in getting bail is that the accused is deemed relatively safe to be free until trial. I doubt very much if this woman is going to head out and start killing autistic children at random.
Do you think that she will be going on a killing spree now that she is free? Is society safer if she is behind bars?
And finally, if the Autism Society is backing this woman then perhaps those with autism need to start another organization, one that suites their needs, one that is more for the people with autism.
oppps...one final thing. IF I had a child who was in chronic pain, destined to a life of more and more pain, I too would put an end to his/her misery. I don't know what Katie was going thro, and I suggest that unless you lived with her on a daily basis you have no clue either. THAT hopefully will come out in trial.
_________________________
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#41170 - 06/16/06 12:21 AM
Re: Remembering Katie McCarron
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walkin and rollin
Member
Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 417
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Cass, I didn't get the stats I asked for yet, but I already knew that dis kids are abused more than AB ones. I've taken care of kids who were beaten. This child wasn't abused- she was killed. The stats 'I' got weren't relevant to my question in this discussion.
Sure the parents of dis kids are stressed. It's not an excuse for abuse or murder, but it's a fact. Ask Sandy. I questioned whether or not they are given less harsh sentences. It had nothing to do with who gets beaten or killed more often.
I personally think people who murder their kids should be put to death, and it doesn't matter to me what level of education they have attained. Much has been made of this mother's education. Does this mean we give dropouts a pass? It's more understandable if it's someone without a degree?
walkin
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#41175 - 06/16/06 02:09 AM
Re: Remembering Katie McCarron
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cass
Member
Registered: 03/01/00
Posts: 3505
Loc: WA
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i am not talking about bail here. (btw, who posted that 10% bail?). but nm that.
i am talking about society's acceptance of this perception of "poor stressed mom w/ dis kid." and yup, mom being in medical industry damn well oughta concern you next time you are helpless in a hospital bed. been there with my dad before he passed away. and my mom, my brother, my friends. next it'll likely be me.
and herein lies your prob, pd, in this whole equation:
"NDY, an organization that has made it a mission to exploit people and their pain."
please provide me proof of this assertion. and why they would do so. are they millionaires from it?
btw, "the autism society." right, then i guess carecure speaks for you, huh pd? like there is a single source that is infallible. next time you attack cure for paralysis or the CRF, i'll remind you of the experts. it sure as hell wouldn't be you or me or the grandpa who was raising katie now would it? nope, carecure speaks for all sci.
btw, until ndy was contacted by him, his grand daughter was being USED by the media to excuse her murderer. that's why he contacted them. and you would do what, pd, if it were your grand daughter? hell, they wouldn't even print her picture. why? did you even know she was murdered a month ago? like hey...NDY is trolling for cases and they missed this.
how about the outraged parents or family members of ppl with autism? their voice has been raised in outcry since grandpa forced it in the news via internet.
the "autism society" wants to use katie as a poster child. see, this child's mom was so desperate for help, she killed her child. so we need money. fact is, the child wasn't even living with mom.
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#41176 - 06/16/06 06:53 AM
Re: Remembering Katie McCarron
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MerryA
Member
Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 10887
Loc: Tennessee
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Just an FYI Andrea Yeats' convictions were thrown out. She was more than stressed - the woman was/is mentally ill and there is plenty of documentation to that fact.
Yates is being held in the psychiatric ward of Rusk Penitentiary in Rusk, Texas, about 200 miles north of Houston, Odom said. Yates' attorneys said they did not seek her release after the ruling because she is receiving medical treatment for severe postpartum depression. Yates was convicted of capital murder in March 2002 and sentenced to life in prison. She had a well-documented history of postpartum depression and her attorneys argued that she suffered from postpartum psychosis. web page
Most of the parents who kill or abuse their children are not mentally ill and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law but Andrea Yates is/was mentally ill.
_________________________
"I was curious. Since I'm not a cat, that's not dangerous."
- Greg House
76.22.172.94
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#41177 - 06/16/06 07:26 AM
Re: Remembering Katie McCarron
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MrSoul
Member
Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 8330
Loc: Desolation Row
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What Cass said.
_________________________
"I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity."--Edgar Allen Poe
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#41178 - 06/16/06 09:41 AM
Re: Remembering Katie McCarron
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SteveGIMP
Member
Registered: 03/01/00
Posts: 7672
Loc: The Great Lakes State
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Originally posted by ParaDude:
When we as a community (a disabled community) get so vocal over these kinds of things society has a whole begins to think of us as "special", in need of extra protection. This kind of pandering makes us look weak and needy and imho it is no wonder we find it hard some times to get the AB world to look at us as equals, rather than gimps.
The "disabled community" is not a monolithic group of crips who are all the same. And believe it or not, like it or not, we are NOT "equal" in the AB world. We have (or should have) equal value as human beings. But we are absolutely not equal in our ability to interact and survive in the AB world. Some, like Dan, Dayvd and Fuento-whatever, are more equal than others and they work hard to prove how equal, independent, and 'unspecial' they are. That's great. But there are others in the "community" who do need "special" help, protection and/or consideration. Many with disabilities ARE "weak and needy." Because no matter how much they desire or work at it, all things being equal means they will die or be left behind.
If we were all equal, the words disability and disabled wouldn't exist.
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