#201175 - 02/01/12 08:24 PM
Absolutely Amazing
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ævory
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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I think I finally get it. When people call others 'righteous' in a manner which they just drip with hatred for them, they really don't get what the Bible explains. I've had to read it about 20 times now but if you read the relationship that Paul and Saul had with each other you can see it, too.
WOW...the Bible really Does teach us! Yup, and for sure we are all sinners. And those who know (or claim to know) the law yet sin...well, they are judged EXACTLY like those who are ignorant to...who don't know the law...who never admit the law exists...who don't believe in the law...who deny the law...who hate the law..I can go on....but, we all are going to be judged by it.
I see...so, those who aren't concerned with the Bible or God or the here-after, or the LAW, YET, are hell-bent on discussing it...or engaging themselves in talk about it...questioning it...making fun of it...rubbing it in a Christian's face when the Christian sins in their eyes by calling them names or calling them righteous or "and you say you are a Christian", well, they MUST agree with me!
They must....they Must believe that the law came from Our Lord and Father or they WOULD NOT be able to use the law as reason to call someone 'righteous', accordingly (according To that law).
It is a universal law..it is common sense..it came from somewhere! I mean, the believer and the non-believer can agree that the 10 commandments are a good thing and we should follow them....
God didn't show us the law for us to be righteous before HIm, it was given Us so that we could see how sinful we are before Him. He sees it. We are to see it, too!
And so reading about Paul and Saul and how closely Paul resembles (is that the right word?) Jesus makes me see one more example of how the bible is the truth! They spoke of the same thing.
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#201176 - 02/01/12 08:36 PM
Re: Absolutely Amazing
[Re: ævory]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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The first recorded alter ego...
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#201177 - 02/01/12 09:33 PM
Re: Absolutely Amazing
[Re: flicka]
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Deo
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 127
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Glad you got it.
Deo
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#201178 - 02/02/12 07:12 AM
Re: Absolutely Amazing
[Re: Deo]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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Alter ego indicates a double life. But Saul was one way and then at conversion became (Paul), what God had planned way way before any of us were born; when everything 'but' God Was (non-existant) darkness. Nothing existed. God was there, though. A case of alter ego is not what I see. He (God) had plans for us to be part of his church (His people). <----Important thing to remember is He loved us all, no matter what. Still...that was His hope, His desire.
The conversion is really important and I don't know how people can say the Bible is so contradictory because you can not only read about this in Ephesians but in Acts and elsewhere. It all comes together. It is faith...cometh by hearing.
Oh...I think the usage of a term like alter ego is like attaching liberal to the makeup of Jesus. 'alter ego' and 'liberal' weren't words that were around back then. It's easy for us to attach labels to things and people with our knowledge of the language but those words weren't around back then. I wonder if...if they 'were' around back then, if we would be reading such, in the Bible. Would the words used today be in agreement with 'then'.
Edited by ævory (02/02/12 07:17 AM)
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#201179 - 02/02/12 07:34 AM
Re: Absolutely Amazing
[Re: Deo]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Even though Paul never met Jesus in life, his writings constitute possibly 14 of the 27 books of the New Testament and formed the basic structure of much of modern Christianity. That's an awful lot of faith to place on the thoughts of someone who started out in life hating and persecuting Christians and then made a miraculous transformation as an adult.
Seems to me almost as if many Christians are following the teachings of Paul as much or more than the things Jesus himself had to say in the Gospels. Makes me wonder sometimes whether some Christians are actually worshiping Paul instead of Jesus.
I often contemplate what form Christianity would have taken if the Epistle of Athanasius in 367 had included some of the books of the Apochrypha (especially the Gospel of Thomas) and omitted some of the writings of Paul when the organization of the New Testament was first decided on. Things certainly could have taken a VERY different direction.
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#201180 - 02/02/12 08:02 AM
Re: Absolutely Amazing
[Re: ghoti]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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I think the conclusions one draws from reading the Bible depend very greatly on your mindset. If you start with the belief that you are reading the words of God as relayed through the human authors then you are inclined to read it without questioning. Those who view it that way are usually not at all receptive to any debate except for nuances of the meaning,
I respect that view and those who hold it, but I don't share it. I started out reading the Bible that way as a youthful Christian believer but found so many things I simply couldn;t accept that I lost my faith in it. My belief is that the Bible represents the accumulated writings of many different people, and some of it may have come from visions from the creator but they were put into words by humans.
I think it's next to impossible for people from the first group to ever have real discussions since so many questionable topics are simply off limits to them and even talking about those things is considered evil and heretical. Ronda, I suspect that you're in that group and that's why you get so upset when others disagree over topics like this.
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#201191 - 02/02/12 01:12 PM
Re: Absolutely Amazing
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Me too Ghoti. The bible is the inerrant word of God to me.
Paul
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#201196 - 02/02/12 02:40 PM
Re: Absolutely Amazing
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Of course, Paulwa. I knew that but there's a reason I addressed my comments mainly to Ronda. IMO while she views the Bible the way you do, she looks at anyone who posts anything contrary to her beliefs as attacking her faith.
You seem to be able to talk with folks who disagree without getting angry over it, at least as long as the discussion shows mutual respect. Why do you suppose there's a difference?
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#201204 - 02/02/12 06:52 PM
Re: Absolutely Amazing
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Many people get angry when their beliefs are questioned. I used to feel my nap curling up too under those conditions, but I also know that we all have to form our own belief, or unbelief for ourselves. We are personally responsible for our selves and no one else so I don't let other beliefs countering mine to bother me, if I have put my beliefs on the line for all to see. Then I am free of responsibility of spreading the gospel to that person. These days I think evberyone knows what the gospoel of Jesus entails enough to accept salvation from Him.
Paul
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#201212 - 02/03/12 05:51 AM
Re: Absolutely Amazing
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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It took an aweful lot of faith placed in christianity when all the people of Demascus went to wait for what they knew would be the ruination of themselves but to find out that, hey, Saul actually brought this about, this strengthening Of religion. A man who so hated all christianity ends up being converted.
His mission on his way to Demascus was to bring back with him those christians for trial and execution...they knew it yet they gathered to hear him. What does that tell you?
And what happens? He is converted..he becomes Paul. Only God could do that. I have heard say before that worship begins with surrender.
I thoroughly believe that worship does begin with surrender. Surrendering is not a sign of weakness. It is a 1st step. How can anyone believe...how can anyone take and say that they believe in something higher than themselves without being in that ready position to say: hey! there must be someone, a God, that HAS more power than I. That realization (at that point) is maybe not realized by people as being 'the' point at which you are saying to yourself: hey, knowing or believing that is a comfort to me because I know I can turn to Him (or whatever you call your God) for whatever your needs are. FAITH...and surrendering.
And that is why there are so many books or passages in the Bible written by Paul...it is because this was such an important thing to happen. Despite knowing that christians were to be ruined by Saul's coming, they waited to hear him speak. He changed. And it was he (whom hated christianity) that ended up strengthening the faith because of what happened...his conversion.
Over and again we can read this in the Bible. If you choose to not worship God then 'that' is where you are at. You are at a place where you are probably going to be skeptical of all that is written of the Bible.
You can worship in many ways...yes. Of course. And I'm not saying you cannot Know your maker better thru the Bible than thru a walk in the woods---cus who is to know each others' true knowledge....But, what I am saying is that if you wish to understand certain things...like ANY curiosity in life (any subject), you will turn to the book. And all I am saying with "Absolutely Amazing" is that a conversion like that IS amazing. Guess I got a little off topic there, too. But that is what I found exciting. That despite what christians knew to expect...Saul, miraculously changed...into Paul.
If you choose not to believe it then that is fine. I do believe it and have seen proof of it in my life.
Edited by ævory (02/03/12 06:05 AM)
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#201213 - 02/03/12 06:02 AM
Re: Absolutely Amazing
[Re: ghoti]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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Seems to me almost as if many Christians are following the teachings of Paul as much or more than the things Jesus himself had to say in the Gospels. Makes me wonder sometimes whether some Christians are actually worshiping Paul instead of Jesus.
I'd like to see your examples of those Christians, ghoti, in order to agree with you but I don't. I will go out on a limb though and say that you maybe have something else going on here that makes you say such a thing. I mean, now that you've said this, my mind goes to the Catholic religion and how Catholics agree that Mary does the interceding...you don't come to God thru Jesus but through Mary? Is that right...not sure because I am not Catholic and have not ever asked my sister about it ( she is Catholic, she married Catholic). Maybe since the other half of your marriage is Catholic ( didn't you say?) well...maybe that is the root of this strange bringing up. can't say for sure...you tell me...does it bother you that this is part of the Catholic way?
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#201216 - 02/03/12 09:25 AM
Re: Absolutely Amazing
[Re: ævory]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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No, I wasn't thinking of Catholics at all. My wife is actually Catholic and I often attend services with her. I'll give you one
example of what I meant.
Many Christians these days make a huge issue out of opposition to homosexuality, yet Jesus never mentioned it anywhere in the 4 Gospels. Instead he talked about the importance of "loving thy neighbor" and many of his followers were appalled by his often interacting with the most undesirable members of society that most people shunned.
The Bible only speaks out clearly against homosexuality in two places. The first is in Leviticus:
Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
This is often quoted, even though Leviticus also lists a bunch of other things that are banned that most Christians ignore since they say it no longer applies in modern life. Some examples are eating shellfish, eating pork, wearing clothes made of two different fabrics, men cutting their beards, etc.
The other place is in Pauls Epistle to the Romans:
Rom 1 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
This is the other one that anti-gay people use for justification of their hatred, and this is Paul speaking, not Jesus. IMO they are looking more to the words of Paul (and Leviticus) than to Jesus for leadership in this area.
Edited by ghoti (02/03/12 09:26 AM)
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#201229 - 02/03/12 06:42 PM
Re: Absolutely Amazing
[Re: ghoti]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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I don't know what other Christians do as far as who they follow or what. For me the bible is a personal journey and maybe that's why I don't really belong to any church. I feel very close to God, though. He is with me daily.
I just didn't see how you got to thinking about who they follow more than Jesus. I read from Leviticus for my posting and since it is from there I think that I could add that Moses..this was his third book. And it starts out with "And". Why do you think that this is the first passage? Leviticus focuses on the worship and walk of the nation of God. The Hebrew title is Wayyiqra, "And He Called." yada yada yada....The Greek title appearing in the Septuagint is Leuitikon, "That Whci Pertains to the Levites." From This word, the Latin Vulgate derived its name Leviticus which was addopted as the English title. This title is slightly misleading because the book does not deal with the Levites as a whole but more with the priests, a segment of the Levites.
When this book starts with "And" God is continuing his instruction for orderly worship in the tabernacle.
I don't see how you get that Paul's teachings were followed or are followed today in the manner you say they are by how many (?) Christians?; your examples don't make that any clearer to me.
I was excited because something clicked with me when I was reading. I think I mentioned that I had the thought that worship begins with surrendering cus I'd heard it or read it sometime or other ...now as I tried to understand the conversion of Saul to Paul, I agree with what I remembered. It clicks.
Ghoti, since you bring up homosexuality, you know I've looked some more into Leviticus and this book at that time written by Moses gave much...one of which was a sort of guide for real lessons in hygiene and sanitation for the care of the body. The Jews can act as an example of that for just the fact of their long and strong lives lived. Maybe way back then they were 'scared' for those who slept with same sex partners because back then they didn't have the knowledge about "hygiene or sanitation or prevention or cure or whatever" that they do today....for the same sex partners.
I don't have a clue there. And I'm not on anyone's journey but my own. We all can find our own sins described in the Bible...whatever we know them to be or find them to be. I'm not pointing out your sin. I've got enough of my own. I'm now looking at the second verse there in Leviticus. If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord. I guess God wanted each of us (who care to) to bring his own gift. Maybe like they say at Christmas or other times: its the thought that counts (not the gift..or even lack of having a gift.....it's the THOUGHT) and He just wants us to think about 'seeing' our sins for ourselves....and changing.The way being as important as the gift. Something like that. Anyway...this book comes together for me better now. Thanks for your contribution.
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#201234 - 02/03/12 10:25 PM
Re: Absolutely Amazing
[Re: ævory]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Alter ego indicates a double life. But Saul was one way and then at conversion became (Paul), what God had planned way way before any of us were born; when everything 'but' God Was (non-existant) darkness. Nothing existed. God was there, though. A case of alter ego is not what I see. He (God) had plans for us to be part of his church (His people). <----Important thing to remember is He loved us all, no matter what. Still...that was His hope, His desire.
The conversion is really important and I don't know how people can say the Bible is so contradictory because you can not only read about this in Ephesians but in Acts and elsewhere. It all comes together. It is faith...cometh by hearing.
Oh...I think the usage of a term like alter ego is like attaching liberal to the makeup of Jesus. 'alter ego' and 'liberal' weren't words that were around back then. It's easy for us to attach labels to things and people with our knowledge of the language but those words weren't around back then. I wonder if...if they 'were' around back then, if we would be reading such, in the Bible. Would the words used today be in agreement with 'then'.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#201235 - 02/03/12 10:25 PM
Re: Absolutely Amazing
[Re: ævory]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Alter ego indicates a double life. But Saul was one way and then at conversion became (Paul), what God had planned way way before any of us were born; when everything 'but' God Was (non-existant) darkness. Nothing existed. God was there, though. A case of alter ego is not what I see. He (God) had plans for us to be part of his church (His people). <----Important thing to remember is He loved us all, no matter what. Still...that was His hope, His desire.
The conversion is really important and I don't know how people can say the Bible is so contradictory because you can not only read about this in Ephesians but in Acts and elsewhere. It all comes together. It is faith...cometh by hearing.
Oh...I think the usage of a term like alter ego is like attaching liberal to the makeup of Jesus. 'alter ego' and 'liberal' weren't words that were around back then. It's easy for us to attach labels to things and people with our knowledge of the language but those words weren't around back then. I wonder if...if they 'were' around back then, if we would be reading such, in the Bible. Would the words used today be in agreement with 'then'.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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