#196034 - 12/05/10 05:01 PM
God's covenant with Ishmael?
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flicka
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Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Muslims believe that God made a covenant with Ishmael and also with Isaac. As you may know, Abraham is the 'father' of the Jewish, Christian, & Muslim religions. Ishmael was Abraham's first born son (his mother was an Egyptian slave). Ishmael was born when Abraham was 86 years old.
Genesis 16: 15 And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.
16 And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.
Then, Abraham's wife, Sarah, became pregnant and gave birth to Isaac. Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born.
Genesis 21: 5 And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him.
From the Bible, we know that an angel appeared to Hagar and told her to name her child Ishmael.
Genesis 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
We also know that God told Abraham that Sarah would bear a son whom he should name Isaac.
Both the Bible and the Quran record this history. I had learned all this in parochial school years ago, but there is one major difference in the story that was never pointed out to me until recently. While discussing religion over the holiday, I was told that Muslims (at least this one) believe Jewish scribes changed the story in Genesis and that Ishmael is actually, also, a son who received a birthright. He said that is why the story in the Bible about Hagar's exile doesn't make sense. When I argued that it did make sense, he picked up the Bible & showed me what he was talking about.
As noted above, Abraham was 86 years old when Ishmael was born & 100 years old when Isaac was born. That would make Ishmael 14 when Isaac was born. The story in the Quran claims that Hagar & her child were exiled when Ishmael was a baby (to the place where Mecca is today.)
The story in the Bible says that Hagar & Ishmael were exiled after Isaac was born. In fact, they were exiled on the day Isaac was weaned. Let's guess that Isaac was probably 2-3 years old at that time, which would make Ishmael 16-17 years old.
Yet, this is how the Bible describes the exile of Hagar & Ishmael:
Genesis 21: 14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.
16 And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bow shot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept.
Imagine my surprise. Why had this never been pointed out to me before? This is so obviously inconsistent with the beginning of the story:
Genesis 21: 8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.
9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
Thoughts?
Edited by flicka (12/05/10 07:05 PM)
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#196042 - 12/05/10 06:30 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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At the ages these eople lived in those days a 16 year old would be considered but a child and I see nothing inconsostant. I believe the bibles account and that God wasnted Isaac to have the blessing and covenant because whenm it comes down to it Ishmael was really born out of wedlock and later Arabs were described in the bible as wild and angry donkey like people who would be blessed in that they would become a great nation. (Hope I got the description right, haven't read those scriptures ately). I don't hold the quran to be a book given by God and do not believe in it one whit as to being true.
Paul
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#196051 - 12/05/10 07:21 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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At the ages these eople lived in those days a 16 year old would be considered but a child and I see nothing inconsostant.
Maybe a child, but not small enough in stature that she could cast him under a shrub.
I believe the bibles account and that God wasnted Isaac to have the blessing and covenant because whenm it comes down to it Ishmael was really born out of wedlock and later Arabs were described in the bible as wild and angry donkey like people who would be blessed in that they would become a great nation. (Hope I got the description right, haven't read those scriptures ately).
I edited my original post to clarify that Muslims believe both sons of Abraham received a birthright. The part about God saying he would make Ishmael a great nation & the donkey description is in the same chapter of Genesis as the story of Hagar's exile.
I don't hold the quran to be a book given by God and do not believe in it one whit as to being true.
But has anyone ever pointed out the inconsistency in Ishmael's age in that chapter to you? At 16, or 17, years of age, there is no way his mother would be 'casting' him anywhere.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#196054 - 12/05/10 07:24 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: flicka]
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ævory
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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This is interesting, flicka, and I'm gonna read about it.
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#196062 - 12/05/10 07:50 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: ævory]
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flicka
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Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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I thought so too, Ronda. I cannot believe that I never noticed it before, nor that I'd never had it pointed out to me before. It pretty much left me speechless. I'm going to ask my pastor about it the next time I see him. The notion that Ishmael also received a blessing could explain this verse:
Genesis 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#196065 - 12/05/10 08:14 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: flicka]
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ævory
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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I may have read a hokey website (and may not remember correctly) but I thought I'd read that Abraham was questionable as being the father, in Jewish religion.
Edited by ævory (12/05/10 08:15 PM)
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#196067 - 12/05/10 08:26 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: ævory]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Not as far as I know. I was taught Abraham was the father of all three religions (Jewish, Christian, Muslim).
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#196068 - 12/05/10 09:17 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: flicka]
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ævory
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Posts: 9657
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Yes, I didn't mean to make for any confusion. I just really thought what I'd read was misleading/wrong.
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#196071 - 12/05/10 09:45 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: ævory]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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I have to admit that our relative's revelation floored me. If he hadn't shown me the verses in hardback, I would have suspected the online version had been changed. It's just not right that my religious education failed me. I would think the church would at least come up with a plausible explanation for such an obvious decrepancy.
At any rate, I have spent 58 years in the Lutheran religion and am just now being made aware of a 'seed of doubt' by a chapter in the Bible that I've been looking at as long as I can remember. I guess I never understood the meaning of having my eyes opened until now. What a trip!
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#196073 - 12/06/10 12:00 AM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I do believe Ishmaels descendants worshipped the bible God, it was Mohhammed that wrote errors and changed the whole nature of God and made a new god and I think based on the moon god. I will never be convinced otherwise!
Paul
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#196082 - 12/06/10 11:57 AM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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I will never be convinced otherwise!
It really doesn't matter what you think because the Muslim religion claims otherwise and those who follow the faith believe otherwise. As you can imagine, I was not too pleased to be left unable to defend the story of Hagar's exile in the Bible. I must find out how my church explains this decrepancy!
After thinking about it for awhile, I don't believe it changes the Christian religion in any way, but it would change the relationship between Jews & Muslims.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#196124 - 12/06/10 08:43 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Rereading the scriptures , I think Ishmael was maybe less than 5 or 6 years of age when Abraham sent Hagar away into the desert. Who knows hw large the shrub was she cast her sick child under. They had run out of water and and angel made a spring of water to well up. The scriptures said the lad was blessed and grew up to be an archer and Hagar married an Egyption from her own race. No mystery that I can see about those scriptures.
Paul
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#196125 - 12/06/10 08:48 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Rereading the scriptures , I think Ishmael was maybe less than 5 or 6 years of age when Abraham sent Hagar away into the desert.
How can you justify that age by that chapter? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I am really interested. I agree that it would fit if Ishmael was 5-6, maybe even 10 when they were exiled.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#196137 - 12/07/10 06:31 AM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: flicka]
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ævory
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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I think if he were an older boy then when God sent Hagar and child away into the desert he would have had the boy carry water on his back but He had Hagar carry it; when Abraham later was asked to sacrifice Isaac and be sent away to Moriah, He had Abraham's boy carry (or rather, Abraham had him carry) the wood on his back. And getting back to Hagar and son, how much shade can a bush put out for two big people unless they had dinosaur-size bushes back then ;).....
Just some thoughts, I don't know.
Edited by ævory (12/07/10 06:36 AM)
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#196139 - 12/07/10 07:12 AM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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I do believe Ishmaels descendants worshipped the bible God, it was Mohhammed that wrote errors and changed the whole nature of God and made a new god and I think based on the moon god. I will never be convinced otherwise!
Paul
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#196146 - 12/07/10 09:50 AM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: ævory]
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ævory
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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How would it change the relationship between Jews and Muslims, Flicka?
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#196153 - 12/07/10 11:19 AM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: ævory]
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flicka
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Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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It would change the 'favored' status of the Jews over the Muslims.
Edited by flicka (12/07/10 11:53 AM)
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#196155 - 12/07/10 11:34 AM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: flicka]
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ævory
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Posts: 9657
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Thanks.
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#196191 - 12/07/10 06:03 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: ævory]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I think when Issaac was weaned Sarah saw Ishmael making fun of Isaac and it really iritated her especially after the rough time Hagar gave Sarah when she (Hagar) was pregnant with Abrahams child. She wanted Abraham to get rid of her back then I think but Abraham said no. God said His blessing and covenant would be with Isaac. I imagine Hagar had a lot to do with Ishmaels feelings towards the baby Isaac. When he began being rude Sarah insisted abraham get rid of her and Abraham finally agreed. The fact that she could fit him under a bush means he was not all that big and she sat against him on the shady side more than likely.It did hurt Abraham to send his son off and away thouigh. God said He would make a great nation of Ishmael and He did.
I think Ismael was no more than 5 or 6 to my way of thinking. Of course Muslims would like to think he was much older to make their claims better maybe. It would be hard to take for a nation to be chosen by the Creator over a half brothers nation. Probably what made them so ferocious in nature.
Paul
Edited by Paulwa_dup1 (12/07/10 06:05 PM)
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#196195 - 12/07/10 06:31 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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I think Ismael was no more than 5 or 6 to my way of thinking. Of course Muslims would like to think he was much older to make their claims better maybe.
Do you think Abraham's age was recorded incorrectly at the birth of his sons, or do you think that part of the Bible is what was changed by scribes?
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#196198 - 12/07/10 07:34 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Didn't the bible say he was 100 years old? Don't have time to look it up right now but I think Sarah was 90 years old too. What kind of point are you trying to make Flicka? Not sure I understand. I don't think any part of the scripture was changed ever that I know of.
Paul
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#196199 - 12/07/10 07:50 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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What kind of point are you trying to make Flicka? Not sure I understand.
The Bible says Abraham was 86 when Ishmael was born & 100 when Isaac was born. So, if this happened after Isaac was weaned, Ishmael was at least 16 years old. Something isn't right in that chapter.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#196200 - 12/07/10 08:57 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Maybe Ishmael was very small for his age.??
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#196202 - 12/07/10 09:59 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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I'm more inclined to think the part about Hagar & Ishmael being exiled on the day that Isaac was weaned was inserted into the story erroneously and that they were exiled when Ishmael was still small.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#196217 - 12/08/10 02:16 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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That puts you into the position of saying the bible is wrong..or, we just don't know the physical facts of things. I prefer the latter and will take the bible ver batem as written.
Paul
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#196224 - 12/08/10 02:49 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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That puts you into the position of saying the bible is wrong..
Yes, it does and I am highly agitated by that fact. After reading around on the internet, I see that this chapter has been the subject of quite a bit of discussion for a long time. I feel cheated that it wasn't addressed back when I was taught about the Abrahamic religions. I really wonder why it wasn't.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#196332 - 12/12/10 09:40 PM
Re: God's covenant with Ishmael?
[Re: flicka]
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ævory
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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You could figure too that maybe Abraham was 111 when Isaac was born, since it says that it was 25 years waiting, and God fulfilled his promise of Hagar's bearing a son. But it's all in God's time so who knows for sure.
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