#195705 - 11/26/10 09:15 PM
Strange..
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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History channel on tv has for the last year been putting out loads of prophecy and end time scenarios from the bible and other religions. It is like a flood compared to what has been shown previously. Wonder why so much emphasis on religion in the last year..maybe the big sunami and volcano's and earthquakes? And all the people being killed by these disasters and the furor in and around Jerusalem, Israel. The bible does say a lot about that. People must be getting interested or they wouldn't show it on tv. Many religions have an end time scenario including many indian tribes such as Navajo and Hopi's. Art Bell called it what he perceived as 'the Quickening', and wrote a book about it. Something has to be up with so many people gaining interest and science talking about devastating earth catastrophe's. Right?
Paul
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#195706 - 11/26/10 09:32 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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Just producing what people want to see. All the nonsense out there has created interest.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#195707 - 11/26/10 10:09 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Something has to be up with so many people gaining interest and science talking about devastating earth catastrophe's. Right?
Do you believe that the Mayan Calendar is prophecy? People have been counting on 2012 for years.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195708 - 11/26/10 11:34 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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Paul I
Member
Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 7913
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Not really. I believe it was started with Raiders of the Lost Ark followed by the Da Vinci Code. It all generated interest in the mysticism of religion. Along came 9/11 and we all began to learn quickly and sometimes inaccurately about Islam. It had to be compared with
Christianity out of need. This is all parallel to rise and occasional fall of tele-evangelists and the Christian right. It's been hard to escape it all here in the US. It seems like a natural progression of a field of study. There has been a lot about Nostrademus. Do you believe his prophecies?
_________________________
"...only the shadow knows"
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#195714 - 11/27/10 12:57 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paul I]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Others may have an inkling of the truth in these prophecys but I personally place the bible far above these other sources such as Nostradomes, the Mayans and others. I kind of think they may have come about from the dark side and that the pyramids and all these other great stone edifices were aided by Lucifers legions using great technology of higher beings created by God. Lucifer was supposed to be one of Gods crowning achievements and was said to be a very beautiful creature and highly intelligent before he fell from Grace and was expelled from heaven.
I have been entertaining other ideas that can be found biblically but not out and out truth that maybe science may be on the right track about some of their aging of the dinosaurs and cave peoples era's being millions of years old. I thnk there is the possiblity that Lucifer also known as the covering cherub, may have been responsible for designing these creatures and early cave men and God gave them the breath of life. Maybe when Lucifer began abusing them and making himself a god to them...God said enough and destroyed that creation by flooding the earth and making it dark and removing Lucifer from His domain to live in that darkness for his sin of wanting to usurp God's throne and position. Maybe God not wanting creation to end on a sour note Got the Godhead to re-establish the earth as a home for mankind and animals that they would create and they would create man astep higher than the caveman who was just at the top of the animal chain with rudimentary intelligence. Instead God created His first man and woman in the image of the Godhead with higher intelligence levels and with body, soul and spirit. When mankind enticed by satan fell into sin and disobedience, man's spirit that communed wth God died that day and communication with God became blind and the only communication that existed could only be brought about by God interjecting Himself. Man's natural communication with God had died with their spirit. And we have been caught between heaven and hell ever since till God's plan of redempton of mankind came by begotting a son from God to live as a man on earth and be sinless and die and pay for mankinds sin. Well that is what I have been thinking..and I know I am far from the first to think this way but it does line up the facts of science somewhat with the words of the bible.
Paul
Edited by Paulwa_dup1 (11/27/10 01:00 PM)
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#195722 - 11/27/10 04:07 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Paul I
Member
Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 7913
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Indeed it does.
_________________________
"...only the shadow knows"
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#195726 - 11/27/10 04:40 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paul I]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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The Proof of Fulfilled Prophecies:
The Messianic Prophecies:
These are the prophecies about the anointed one (‘Messiah’ in Hebrew) who was to arrive in the
future. The number of these prophecies is more than 300, all of them very accurately fulfilled in the person
of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Just as an example we mention Psalm 22 in which King David describes the crucifixion of the Lord
almost 1000 years before it happened, he said:
• “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (Ps 22:1)
• “All those who see Me ridicule Me; They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He
trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him; Let Him deliver, since He delights in Him!” (Ps 22:7-8)
• “My tongue clings to my Jaws” (Ps 22:16)
• “They pierced My hand and My feet” (Ps 22:16)
• “They divided My garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots” (Ps 22:18)
Prophecies dealing with nations:
Archeologists have evidence that these prophecies were written down many years before they were
fulfilled; proving that they were not falsified documents claiming to be prophecies that came true. Actually,
the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls stopped the majority of that talk. Although an entire lecture is needed
to cover this part we will provide only one example that should be relevant to the majority of us:
Everyone of you has proof of a fulfilled prophecy on his/her ID card; the fact that your last name
is not ‘Mohamed’, or any other Muslim name, is a fulfillment of the word of Isaiah about Egypt, “In that day
there will be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the Lord at its
border…Then the Lord will be known to Egypt and the Egyptians will know the Lord” (Is 19:19-21)
IV) The Proof of people living at the time of our Lord:
A special proof exists for the New Testament, since Christians were strongly persecuted by both the
Jews and the Roman government. If the New Testament writings were false, these two groups would have
produced a great deal of evidence to stop the growth of this ‘sect’. None exists. Further, the New Testament
writings circulated during the lifetimes of thousands of people who had actually seen our Lord’s miracles
and other historic events. No one ever refuted the New Testament writings as fairy tales.
V) The Proof of Historians:
Secular history supports the Holy Bible. For example, in The Antiquities of the Jews, book 18,
chapter 3, paragraph 3 the famous historian Flavius Josephus writes:
“ Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of
wonderful works – a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many
of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the
principle men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did no forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten
thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not
extinct at this day.”
VI) The Proof of Science:
The Holy Bible is not a science book, yet it is scientifically accurate. In order to get an idea about the
difference between the Holy Bible and science books you may want to try to read a 50-year-old scientific
book. Science is like a baby that is still growing but the Holy Bible is like a distinguished elder full of
knowledge and wisdom. The following are statements that are consistent with known scientific facts. Many
of them were listed in the Holy Bible hundreds or even thousands of years before being recorded elsewhere.
Statement consistent with Geology:
• “It is He who sits above the circle of the earth” (Is 40:22), the Holy Book of Isaiah was written
hundreds of years before Aristotle suggested that the earth might be a sphere.
Statements consistent with Hydrology:
• “He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain; He
brings the wind out of His treasuries” (Ps 135:7)
• “When He utters His voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens: And He causes the vapors
to ascend from the ends of the earth. He makes lightning for33
to ascend from the ends of the earth. He makes lightning for the rain, He brings the wind out of His
treasuries” (Jer 10:13)
In these verses you can see several phases of the hydrologic cycle – the worldwide process of
evaporation, circulation, condensation with electrical discharge and precipitation.
• Also the Holy Bible describes the re-circulation of water: “All the rivers run into the sea, yet the sea
is not full; to the place from which the rivers come, there they return again” (Ecc 1:7)
Statements consistent with Anthropology:
• “They were driven out from among men, they shouted at them as at a thief. They had to live in the
clefts of the valleys, in caves of the earth and the rocks.” (Job 30:5-6)
The Holy Bible is describing cave men; note that these were not ape-men, but descendants of those who
scattered from Babel. They were driven from the community by those tribes who competed successfully for
the more desirable regions of the earth. Then for some reason they deteriorated mentally, physically, and
spiritually. If you go into a bad part of your town you may see this concept in action today.
Statements consistent with Astronomy:
• “He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing” (Job 26:7)
Here the Holy Bible describes the suspension of the earth in space during a time where ‘scientists’
believed the earth rest between the horns of a great animal.
Statements consistent with Psychology:
• “A merry heart does good, like medicine, but a broken spirit dries the bones” (Prov 17:22)
It is a proven fact that a person’s mental and spiritual health is strongly correlated with physical health.
Statements consistent with Biology:
The phrase “according to its kind” occurs repeatedly in the Holy Book of Genesis, stressing the
reproductive integrity of each kind of animal and plant. Today we know this occurs because all of these
reproductive systems are programmed by their genetic codes.
Statements consistent with Physics:
“You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish,
but You will endure; yes they will all grow old like a garment” (Ps 102:25-26). The words of King David
describe the concept of Entropy.
http://suscopts.org/messages/lectures/scriptureslecture1.pdf
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#195736 - 11/27/10 08:32 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: ævory]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Ronda I think those peoples gven over to deep sin begat children of lower intellgence that kind of paralleled the ancient cave dwellers of Lucifers earlier creation, maybe.. God's blessing I think tended to increase intelligence.Just some thoughts.
Paul
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#195737 - 11/27/10 09:58 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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I seriously wonder what the hell this means:
Everyone of you has proof of a fulfilled prophecy on his/her ID card; the fact that your last name
is not ‘Mohamed’, or any other Muslim name, is a fulfillment of the word of Isaiah about Egypt, “In that day
there will be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the Lord at its
border…Then the Lord will be known to Egypt and the Egyptians will know the Lord” (Is 19:19-21)
My niece & her husband are visiting for Thanksgiving and their last name is Muhammad and they are Muslim. Is this honestly saying that there are no people in Egypt who have a Muslim name? I doubt that is a fact.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195739 - 11/28/10 06:34 AM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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19 In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD near its border. 20 It will become a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD because of oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Champion, and He will deliver them. 21 Thus the LORD will make Himself known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the LORD in that day. They will even worship with sacrifice and offering, and will make a vow to the LORD and perform it. 22 The LORD will strike Egypt, striking but healing; so they will return to the LORD, and He will respond to them and will heal them.
23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrians will come into Egypt and the Egyptians into Assyria, and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians.
24 In that day Israel will be the third party with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth, 25 whom the LORD of hosts has blessed, saying, “Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.”
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#195740 - 11/28/10 08:03 AM
Re: Strange..
[Re: ævory]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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Paul, you'd better gird up the loins of your mind because you have a tendancy to live in the land of make believe as far as the Bible is concerned.
The Word of God means what it says and it says what it means. It's that simple. There is no longer any special provision for the Jews except for God's mercy ands long suffering. There is no truth to evolution, and smack-dab in the Bible, right in the Book of Job there's a description of a fire breathing dinosaur. And you discount it. What kind of a believer are you? It's obvious that you aren't a believer of the Word.
Edited by ronniechoate34 (11/28/10 08:04 AM)
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#195741 - 11/28/10 08:07 AM
Re: Strange..
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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Paul, Jesus is coming again, but He is coming not again and again.
Edited by ronniechoate34 (11/28/10 08:08 AM)
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#195742 - 11/28/10 11:46 AM
Re: Strange..
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Ronnie are you a believer that the day of Gods choice of His people has shifted from the Jews to the christian church?That the jews have lost out to God? Replacement theology?
No I don't discount anythng from the word of God in the bible. So what if there was fire breathing creatures in Jobs day? I don't doubt that at all.
Jesus canme to earth the first time to die for mankind. He is coming back to gather His church in the rapture but will not come to earth but will gather us up to Him. His second coming He will stand on the Mt. of Olives and the earth will split with a mighty earthquake and lay the land level for the sectioning of the land to the children of Israel and to prepare for the new temple and residence of Jesus Christ our Lord and King. onnie II think you need to dive into the scriptures for yourself and leave these false religious leaders alone.They will take you where you don't really want to go. God is love but He is also Judgement to those who put wrong words in His mouth and do not give their all to Him. He will not guide you wrong but there aremany religious teachers out in the world who will. Stick to the bible and search out Gods meaning and not what man teachers try to palm off on the people as God's word. Satan is everywhere and ready to take any who is not firmly in the word of God.
Peace to you and stick with the bible for your truths.
Paul
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#195746 - 11/28/10 01:29 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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Ronnie has dropped his manners. least he didn't drop his pants! 
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#195751 - 11/28/10 06:02 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: ævory]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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I honestly don't know how this Bible text can be considered fulfilled prophecy as claimed here. Israel, Eqypt & Assyria never entered into a partnership. In fact, since Assyria has disappeared as an entity, it cannot be fulfilled in the future.
IMO, this prophecy was entirely false.
Everyone of you has proof of a fulfilled prophecy on his/her ID card; the fact that your last name
is not ‘Mohamed’, or any other Muslim name, is a fulfillment of the word of Isaiah about Egypt, “In that day
there will be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the Lord at its
border…Then the Lord will be known to Egypt and the Egyptians will know the Lord” (Is 19:19-21) ”
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195752 - 11/28/10 06:09 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Paul, you'd better gird up the loins of your mind because you have a tendancy to live in the land of make believe as far as the Bible is concerned.
[R]onnie II think you need to dive into the scriptures for yourself and leave these false religious leaders alone.They will take you where you don't really want to go.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195754 - 11/28/10 07:37 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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I've no doubt that God has plans for the Jewish people. The early church was founded by the Jewish people and there are Jews all over the world today that God is protecting and blessing as we live and breathe.
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#195755 - 11/28/10 07:58 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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If this comment is for me, we agree. My quoting you & Paul was just a lil poke for my own amusement. Or, is your remark a comment on the verses(prophecy) in Isaiah?
Edited by flicka (11/28/10 08:00 PM)
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195773 - 11/29/10 12:13 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Ronnie what point were you trying to make with at scripture from Isaiah and the Muslims? I don't understand?? One day the remainng Jews and Muslims will lve together in peace and harmony but according to the biblethe Muslims will be sojourners with the Jews. I do seem to remember there being an altar to the Lord in Egypt and a large highway to be built in the future over there.The future after the wars will be great for all peoplebecause Jesus will be the King of the world and it will be learning and prosperous for a thousand years according to prophecy then satan wll be loosed for the final sweep to cleanse the earth of evil intentioned people and then all will vanish and we will all be standing before Jesus Christ at the great whte throne for the final judgement of those who are against Jesus Christ and God. We don't know what the punishment or length of it is for sure for everyone but it will happen for sure. We don't know what the extent of God's mercy will be in that judgement but those found in sin without repentance with ther sins covered with the blood of Jesus Christ's great sacrifice will face punishment for evil done in their body. All the dead and living sinner will have their personal and extremely detailed day in court facing their accusers and victims. It will be a great day of tears on both sides to clear the slate honestly for every person whoever lived as a human being.It will be interesting to see how unbelievers who have done good deeds all their lives will fare in this judgement when weighed in the scales of mercy and justice. I wonder how long all this will take..but we will be outside of times existance I think so it may not even be apparent to anyone.
Paul
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#195809 - 11/29/10 06:27 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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I wasn't making any refference to Isaiah.
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#195810 - 11/29/10 07:04 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Paul, Jesus is coming again, but He is coming not again and again.
Ronnie, does this mean you don't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of all believers?
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#195811 - 11/29/10 07:35 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Sorry Ronnie it was Ronda (aevory)'s comment. Seeing Ghoti's post, what rapture theory if any do you follow Ronnie?
Paul
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#195814 - 11/29/10 07:59 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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I believe that there will be no pre tribulation rapture. Jesus is coming back once more but not twice.
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#195817 - 11/29/10 08:50 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Jesus comes to earth twice. First for crucifiction and resurrection. Secondly to set up His kingdom.In the pre trib rapture He doesn't return to earth but gathers His church into heaven. Don't know how near the earth He comes for His church but He doesn't come to the earth and only for very short time at that. They are gathered to heaven in the blink of an eye. First the dead in Christ then all living christians. According to the Apostle Paul who was caught up to heaven and saw things no man could utter. So you are right Jesus returns to earth only twice before the 1000 year millenium.
Paul
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#195825 - 11/30/10 10:42 AM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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The church will be here until the end of the wor;d.
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#195826 - 11/30/10 02:30 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Ronnie what point were you trying to make with at scripture from Isaiah and the Muslims? I don't understand??
Yes, it was Ronda's post & it was used as proof of prophecy being fulfilled...so, I am also wondering exactly what this means with regard to prophecy. What is your take on it, Paulwa?
Everyone of you has proof of a fulfilled prophecy on his/her ID card; the fact that your last name
is not ‘Mohamed’, or any other Muslim name, is a fulfillment of the word of Isaiah about Egypt, “In that day
there will be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the Lord at its
border…Then the Lord will be known to Egypt and the Egyptians will know the Lord” (Is 19:19-21) ”
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195827 - 11/30/10 02:46 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Ronda will have to explain,Flicka. I don't really know.
Ronnie if you look at all the scrptures concerning the second coming and the rapture you will see that each verse describes a different viewpoint concerning where Jesus is at the time of the fullfilment of that verse. For instance the rapture scriptures say that Jesus calls us up to meet Him in the heavens while other verses speak of Jesus coming to earth in the second coming to set up His kingdom after the great tribulation and His feet touch the mt. of Olives and the mountain splits with a great earthquake. Now these two verses describe two seperate events and times. Other verses say the anti christ cannot be revealed till the church is taken away. Other scriptures say the church will be removed and not suffer the tribulation to come on the earth. The christians you see at the end of the tribulation are people who come to Jesus during the great tribulationn and many of them are beheaded and otherwse killed for their beliefs. There is no end time rapture. Jesus returns to claim the earth at His second coming. If you read it and search out the scriptures you will see this is the right interpretation as the scriptures are very plain on this. There ar many other scriptures that prove this to be so and when compared to each other they definately dilineate two totally diferent events explaining the Rapture as compared to the Second Coming.
Paul
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#195829 - 11/30/10 03:01 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Careful! You are going to piss Ronda off with this type of condescending attitude. Don't you think we have read those scriptures ourselves and simply disagree with your interpretation?
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195832 - 11/30/10 03:07 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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No Ronda can explain what she means, maybe she is seeing something we have missed in that scripture.
Flicka just cannot see how you can reach any other conclusion on the rapture when the scriptures are as plain as the nose on your face delineating the rapture and the second coming as two seperate events supported by scripture. Oh well..See you on the way up..
Paul
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#195833 - 11/30/10 03:32 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Flicka just cannot see how you can reach any other conclusion on the rapture when the scriptures are as plain as the nose on your face ...
If this were true, all Christian religions would consider it part of their dogma.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195839 - 11/30/10 06:04 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I think most people just scan the bible when reading and don't give a thought to adding the third dimension by associatng thoughts, scriptures and themes together too get a more full picture. You have to read it enough to where when reading a scripture you recall similar scriptures and compare and see if there is an associative theme or added clarity. At least that is the way I read the bible. It is a three or multi dimensional book that can never be totally fathomed in a man's lifetime. I guess we are all different in the way we view things and we have to be true to the scriptures and our selves in understanding it all.
Paul
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#195841 - 11/30/10 06:28 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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I think most people just scan the bible when reading and don't give a thought to adding the third dimension by associatng thoughts, scriptures and themes together too get a more full picture.
I'm not just talking about myself. I am considering how could it be possible that the Apostles and the early church fathers overlooked such an important eschatological event? They couldn't if it is as plain as you seem to think it is. The truth is that this theory did not exist until the 1800s and is a product of man, not God.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195845 - 11/30/10 10:09 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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It is a product from the apostle Paul as given him from Jesus Christ. The early church was well aware of the rapture because Paul preached it. The later church just did not pick up on it till later. It is not a recent idea but came down from the early church when the Apostles were still alive and working. You have been listening to what others have been errantly saying about Darby that he was the first, BUT he was not the first but only one of a long strng of believers n the rapture from the early church on down.
Paul
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#195878 - 12/01/10 06:32 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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The early church was well aware of the rapture because Paul preached it. The later church just did not pick up on it till later. It is not a recent idea but came down from the early church when the Apostles were still alive and working.
Conclusion
Going back to the title of this study: "When did the Apostle Paul Begin to Preach the Pre-tribulation (Any-Moment) Coming of Christ?" we are obliged to conclude that as far as the New Testament record is concerned there is no indication anywhere that he ever did begin to preach it. Those who insist that he did, must engage in some peculiar methods of exegesis for as this paper has clearly shown there is not point in his ministry when he could have preached such a doctrine. In the chronological outline of his life and work there are always certain events on the horizon than must be fulfilled which would completely contradict the whole theory of any-momentism. How long will those who preach the any-moment unheralded pre-tribulation coming of Christ continue to evade this problem? It is time that this novel nineteenth century doctrinal innovation be exposed for what it is, namely, a perversion of the teaching of Holy Scripture. Let Bible students be guided solely by the principle of "what saith the Scripture?" and may we rest assured that pre-tribulationism will soon be recognized as a fabrication of the human mind without any biblical basis.
Edited by flicka (12/01/10 06:33 PM)
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195891 - 12/02/10 12:22 AM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Flicka you are just blind to the evidence in the bible andf the people tyhrough the centuries who have preached a pre trib rapture. You know the scripture Paul wrote when he said I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep but the dead in christ shall rise first then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up to be with the Lord forever. In so many words. Jesus said He did not want His church to be in the tribulation and that He would remove them prior to the time of Jacobs trouble..meaning Israels trouble in the final day of the Lord.
Any belief other than the pre trib rapture is definately flat out wrong!
Paul
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#195894 - 12/02/10 06:51 AM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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MerryA
Member
Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 10887
Loc: Tennessee
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Any belief other than the pre trib rapture is definately flat out wrong!
Paul
I think you are definately flat out wrong. The word "rapture" does not appear in the Bible. There is not scripture to back up what you believe. Believe what you want of course but don't claim you have Scripture to back it up when it doesn't exist. 
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"I was curious. Since I'm not a cat, that's not dangerous."
- Greg House
76.22.172.94
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#195897 - 12/02/10 12:25 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Flicka you are just blind to the evidence in the bible
Read the webpage I linked to see there is NO evidence that Paul preached a secret rapture. None.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195899 - 12/02/10 01:01 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Dr.Hudson is an over educated idiotof the frst degree. The Catholic biible has the rappiamore (sp) which is the equivalent of rapture. No matter what you say scriptures written ofPaul'ssayings definately shows a pre trib rapture and is backed up by other scriptures concerning the church and the antichrist. Beliefve whatyou want butif you can't see the truth of those scriptures you just aren't looking and thinking.
Paul
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#195902 - 12/02/10 01:27 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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Jesus to return on May 21, 2011
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I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#195903 - 12/02/10 01:59 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: inkblister]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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May 21, hey. Dang it, that's sure going to mess up all our plans for next summer. 'Course with all the Christians gone the traffic will be a lot lighter and it should solve the unemployment problem so I guess there's some upside.
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#195904 - 12/02/10 02:28 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Beliefve whatyou want butif you can't see the truth of those scriptures you just aren't looking and thinking.
What do you think of this guy's prediction?
According to Camping's prediction, the Rapture will happen exactly 7,000 years from the date that God first warned people about the flood. He said the flood happened in 4990 B.C., on what would have been May 21 in the modern calendar. God gave Noah one week of warning.
Since one day equals 1,000 years for God, that means there was a 7,000-year interval between the flood and rapture.
"We hope that anyone would get a Bible out and try and prove that this is wrong," he said.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195905 - 12/02/10 04:52 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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They say God gave Noah one weeks warning of the flood. I don't think so. God told Noah to build an ark to His specifications because He was going to flood the earth to destroy mankind. From what I know Noah took a few years to gather materials and build the ark while preaching that God was going to flood the earth, not one week! So that knocks out their selection of 7000 years as a time frame. Besides the bible says we will only know the season of His return due to prophecies being fulfilled, never the day nor the hour...even Jesus does not know that exact time, only God the Father.
If He did return on that exact date it would only be a fluke. Not likely, but He could return at any time as all prophecy has been fulfilled for the event to take place. The gospel going around the world and people turning to god is what is holding the return up but when the final person accepts, Jesus will be sent down for us.
Paul
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#195908 - 12/02/10 06:53 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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The gospel going around the world and people turning to god is what is holding the return up but when the final person accepts, Jesus will be sent down for us.
Final person accepts what?
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195909 - 12/02/10 07:33 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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I think most people just scan the bible when reading and don't give a thought to adding the third dimension by associatng thoughts, scriptures and themes together too get a more full picture. I'm not just talking about myself. I am considering how could it be possible that the Apostles and the early church fathers overlooked such an important eschatological event? They couldn't if it is as plain as you seem to think it is. The truth is that this theory did not exist until the 1800s and is a product of man, not God.
The apostles worked in differing ways so I dont' see that as a surprise. And for the priests...no surprise there. I'm sure they weren't any different than priests and church heads of today in that they aren't all in the way of hearing when they fill their minds with that which THEY want to preach/teach. Prophecies are thru-out the bible...old testament and new. many prophecies..
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#195910 - 12/02/10 07:41 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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Flicka you are just blind to the evidence in the bible Read the webpage I linked to see there is NO evidence that Paul preached a secret rapture. None.
No, Paul didn't teach a secret rapture and from reading this board i dont' see anyone saying he did. What is revealed is there in many parts of the Bible, the Bible is an open book and no cult type secrecy existed/exists. The only thing I ever read was that in the very end there IS a closed chapter or book...papers...that no one Will know til the end.
And yes, the dead will rise first. Then those who are alive on earth that see the light and even those who are dead FIRST whom were dead in belief...WILL rise before Jesus comes back for the rest of us. Paul in Thessalonica speaks of it.
And the Jews...well they surely didn't believe in the whole Jesus is Messaiha (spelling sucks cus i'm tired) cus of more than just a lack of belief..there were other reasons, but then Paul also went on from Thessalonica to ...i forget, but it'sin ACTS 17 or so where the Jews were much more open to learning and hearing Paul's message.
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#195911 - 12/02/10 07:45 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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Flicka you are just blind to the evidence in the bible Read the webpage I linked to see there is NO evidence that Paul preached a secret rapture. None.
See how you two are missing each other...different eyes...one says 'evidence in the bible' (which, i agree with there) and the other talks of secrecy.
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#195921 - 12/02/10 11:25 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: ævory]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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No, Paul didn't teach a secret rapture and from reading this board i dont' see anyone saying he did.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195922 - 12/02/10 11:40 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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And the Jews...well they surely didn't believe in the whole Jesus is Messaiha (spelling sucks cus i'm tired) cus of more than just a lack of belief..there were other reasons,
Correct. Jesus did not fit the description (fulfill the prophecy the Jews are expecting) for their messiah.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195923 - 12/02/10 11:55 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: ævory]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Flicka you are just blind to the evidence in the bible Read the webpage I linked to see there is NO evidence that Paul preached a secret rapture. None. See how you two are missing each other...different eyes...one says 'evidence in the bible' (which, i agree with there) and the other talks of secrecy.
If one is to believe in Paulwa's notion of a "rapture" it was a secret until the middle 1800s...despite Paulwa's denial, the rapture he speaks of is "secret" and not preached about, or acknowledged by Bible scholars with hours of study behind them. The idea popped out of man's desires in the 1800s.
I actually believe that man is "raptured" when he/she dies. It's that simple, in my book.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195924 - 12/03/10 06:48 AM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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corlorde
Member
Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 9246
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You know the scripture Paul wrote when he said I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep but the dead in christ shall rise first then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up to be with the Lord forever.
It appears that quote was dealing with the resurrection of Christ, and not necessarily about how Christ was going to come back to earth and take his church back to heaven.
_________________________
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#195926 - 12/03/10 09:46 AM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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Flicka you are just blind to the evidence in the bible Read the webpage I linked to see there is NO evidence that Paul preached a secret rapture. None. See how you two are missing each other...different eyes...one says 'evidence in the bible' (which, i agree with there) and the other talks of secrecy. If one is to believe in Paulwa's notion of a "rapture" it was a secret until the middle 1800s...despite Paulwa's denial, the rapture he speaks of is "secret" and not preached about, or acknowledged by Bible scholars with hours of study behind them. The idea popped out of man's desires in the 1800s. I actually believe that man is "raptured" when he/she dies. It's that simple, in my book.
Not in my book. lol Really, I'm not dissing your view. I just see it differently. Christians are to be forever watchful and in reading the Bible you can see the prophecies spoken of that are of past, present and future...one book -->the New Testament, aligning with the Old Testament to help us understand which ones have been fullfilled and which ones remain to be. And when Paul (the prophet) spoke of the mysteries he was speaking (in my opinion) or trying to speak in their language...in the way in which they 'saw' things. That seeing way they had was to think that it was secrecy and a mystery, so Paul speaks to them saying "I will tell you the mystery" [I will tell you what you think is a mystery] BECAUSE nothing IS a mystery. It is written in the Bible and support for the prophecies are thru-out it. The only thing I think I've ever read about secrecy is the final time. The final prophecy and NO one knows what is to come nor what has been written of it.But I can't find it in the Bible, now, which is what I've been trying to find ...maybe it isn't meant for me to find where I read that.
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#195932 - 12/03/10 10:57 AM
Re: Strange..
[Re: ævory]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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The only thing I think I've ever read about secrecy is the final time. The final prophecy and NO one knows what is to come nor what has been written of it.But I can't find it in the Bible, now, which is what I've been trying to find ...maybe it isn't meant for me to find where I read that.
Maybe Matthew 24:36?
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
----
The reason you have not read of the secret rapture is because it is not in the Bible. The 'rapture' is referred to as "secret" because of that fact.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195935 - 12/03/10 01:48 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: MerryA]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Well the answer about the rapture is in the bible and people will squabble over it's meaning for years, but there is written proof of religiousleaderspreaching about the rapture from the tme of Paulon down through time..long before Darby picked up on it in the 1800's. It is not important but the bible says those who are watching for His return will get a special crown. He says he will come like a thief in the night and that seems to place it in a secretiive category formasny. he also says that after that people will believe a lie and be damned. Many scholars beliieve that statement to be about the explanation of where millions of people just up and diisappeared too and would probably be told by the anti christ to bring people to him to worship him as the messiah.
Colorde, that scripture about the dead in Christ is not about Jesus resurrection, He was the first fruits of the resurrection. The bible says many saints were resurrected just after Christ and were seen and talked to by many christians before Jesus ascended to heaven. No, that scripture talked of the resurrection of all dead christians and the catching up of those who were alive at the time, thus the scripture is true where He says many will not see death from the generation who is there at the time of the rapture and that they would be caught up instantly after the dead in Christ are raptured. Well I am through espousing on this subject, you either see it or you don't..it is there and very plain to those who study it. The old style churches just do not see it but many are startiing to come around to that view of the truth.
Paul
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#195936 - 12/03/10 03:12 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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It is not important but the bible says those who are watching for His return will get a special crown. He says he will come like a thief in the night and that seems to place it in a secretiive category formasny.
All who believe in the second coming of Christ know that it can happen when no one expects it (like a thief in the night). Therefore, all who believe in the second coming of Christ are watching for His return.
No, that scripture talked of the resurrection of all dead christians and the catching up of those who were alive at the time, thus the scripture is true where He says many will not see death from the generation who is there at the time of the rapture and that they would be caught up instantly after the dead in Christ are raptured.
I believe that those who are alive at the time of the second coming of Christ, will not see death. What you are referencing as the "rapture" is the second coming of Christ.
Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
The old style churches just do not see it but many are startiing to come around to that view of the truth.
This perversion of scripture leaves God's chosen people behind. It just doesn't jive with old testament teaching.
Why didn't Peter teach this theory?
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195943 - 12/03/10 08:21 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I don't know why Peter didn't preach the rapture, not sure that he didn't but Paul went to heaven and came back and Peter didn't.
It doesn't jive with what the Jews believe because God has seperate plans for them.
Like said before am through explaining why I believe in the pre trib rapture and am solid in my understanding and belief. If you are happy with your interpretaton, good for you. I have said enough.
Paul
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#195962 - 12/04/10 09:20 AM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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corlorde
Member
Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 9246
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I don't know why Peter didn't preach the rapture, not sure that he didn't but Paul went to heaven and came back and Peter didn't.
It doesn't jive with what the Jews believe because God has seperate plans for them.
God probably has "separate plans" for everyone. No sense in trying to figure out what they are, since everyone has different views on what "the plan" is. I figure, I'll live my life as best I can, and let the chips fall where they may
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#195964 - 12/04/10 11:42 AM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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It doesn't jive with what the Jews believe because God has seperate plans for them.
But, it is impossible to think God would put His chosen people in the position of being pawns to the gentiles. There's the big rub.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#195970 - 12/04/10 02:34 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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It is God's plan and we can not always understand His motives. He has great plans at the end for the 144,000 of His people to carry out. There are two seperate covenants with mankind. The first covenant is to Israel His chosen people to carry Hiis plans and words (bible) forth. The second covenant is by Jesus (God in human flesh) to those who accept His sacrifice. Both have their own set of values seperate from each other but overlappng in fundamental ways and built from the same religious foundation.
Paul
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#195985 - 12/04/10 07:31 PM
Re: Strange..
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Both have their own set of values seperate from each other but overlappng in fundamental ways and built from the same religious foundation.
One could say the same about the other Abahamic religion also.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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