#195493 - 11/18/10 01:36 PM
Re: Bogus Websites I Would Stay Away From
[Re: ævory]
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starlight.2
Member
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 796
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why did you say it was 'bogus'?
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Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.
--Dalai Lama
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#195504 - 11/20/10 11:14 AM
Re: Bogus Websites I Would Stay Away From
[Re: starlight.2]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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The virgin birth concept has been used multiple times in the distant past to impart divinity to people. Why is a website that points out this fact "bogus"?
If we all avoid reading things that disagree with our preconceptions we'll never learn anything new or be able to defend our beliefs. IMO that's the pathway of true ignorance.
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#195505 - 11/20/10 11:40 AM
Re: Bogus Websites I Would Stay Away From
[Re: ghoti]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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Ghoti I know what you're getting at. Take the falsehood surrounding buddah's supposed virgin birth for instance. If I didn't check into that garbage story I might be persuaded to believe it. But once I took a look at all of those fantastic tales surrounding Siddhartha Gautama's birth I couldn't understand why anyone would believe it. Like why would anyone believe the legend about buddah having been born from his mother's right armpit? Tpagan stories are nothing more than absurd blasphemies.
Stack the story of buddah's birth against the true virgin birth, and which one are you gonna believe?
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#195506 - 11/20/10 12:27 PM
Re: Bogus Websites I Would Stay Away From
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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“After a careful, laborious, and occasionally wearisome study of the evidence offered and the analogies urged, I am convinced that heathenism knows nothing of virgin births. Supernatural births it has without number, but never from a virgin in the New Testament sense and never without physical generation, except in a few isolated instances of magical births on the part of women who had not the slightest claim to be called virgins. In all recorded instances which I have been able to examine, if the mother was a virgin before conception took place she could not make that claim afterward” - Sweet, Louis Matthews (1906), The Birth and Infancy of Jesus Christ (Philadelphia: Westminster).
(p. 188).
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#195507 - 11/20/10 12:48 PM
Re: Bogus Websites I Would Stay Away From
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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“The literature of the world is prolific with narratives of unusual births, but it contains no precise analogy to the virgin birth in Matthew and Luke. Jesus’ ‘virgin birth’ is not ‘pagan’.” - Boslooper, Thomas (1962), The Virgin Birth, Philadelphia: Westminster Press.
(p. 136).
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#195508 - 11/20/10 12:52 PM
Re: Bogus Websites I Would Stay Away From
[Re: ghoti]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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The virgin birth concept has been used multiple times in the distant past to impart divinity to people. Why is a website that points out this fact "bogus"?
If we all avoid reading things that disagree with our preconceptions we'll never learn anything new or be able to defend our beliefs. IMO that's the pathway of true ignorance.
What do you make of those last two quotes that I posted, ghgoti?
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#195510 - 11/20/10 01:10 PM
Re: Bogus Websites I Would Stay Away From
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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Ghoti I know what you're getting at. Take the falsehood surrounding buddah's supposed virgin birth for instance. If I didn't check into that garbage story I might be persuaded to believe it. But once I took a look at all of those fantastic tales surrounding Siddhartha Gautama's birth I couldn't understand why anyone would believe it. Like why would anyone believe the legend about buddah having been born from his mother's right armpit? Tpagan stories are nothing more than absurd blasphemies.
Stack the story of buddah's birth against the true virgin birth, and which one are you gonna believe?
Okay ronnie, I have no idea where you are getting your stories, but as a Zen Buddhist and what I have been taught, your concept of the birth of Siddartha is COMPLETELY WRONG!... Siddartha was born to a King and Queen, no claims to a virgin birth that I was ever aware of... And he was born from her right side (not armpit), speculation is that this was due to a ceasarian-type birth (in India, where he was born, it was believed to cut the belly would disrupt the energy flow of the bodie's shakras, thus the cutting of the right side, opposite that of the heart to prevent possible harm to it)... The fact that his mother died 7 days after his birth supports the belief that this was the case...
As far as your belief in a "true virgin birth", that is still a point of debate... The translated hebrew accounts of the mother of Jesus uses the word "almah" which means "girl of marriageable age"... If they truely claimed she was a virgin, why didn't they use "bethula" which literally means "virgin"?... Since Mary bore Jesus at a time and place where the culture would kill an unmarried pregnant woman by stoning, is it not possible she lied in an attempt at self preservation?... I'm not saying what you believe is not true, but meerly presenting an alternate and more logical point of view... Link
From what I understand and am aware of, the first virgin birth story is that of the egyptian god Horus (who's life accounts are almost exactly that of Jesus but take place way before)...
It's obvious you are a great believer in your own faith, but please refrain from disrespecting the beliefs of others... You are not making your belief any favors by tearing down another's... If anything it makes it and you look worse...
Edited by inkblister (11/20/10 01:19 PM)
_________________________
I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#195512 - 11/20/10 01:22 PM
Re: Bogus Websites I Would Stay Away From
[Re: inkblister]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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And he was born from her right side (not armpit), speculation is that this was due to a ceasarian-type birth (in India, where he was born, it was believed to cut the belly would disrupt the energy flow of the bodie's shakras)... The fact that his mother died 7 days after his birth supports the belief that this was the case...
It must have been a hard delivery. After all, one legend has him descending from his mothers right side from a ladder, like a man no less.
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#195514 - 11/20/10 01:41 PM
Re: Bogus Websites I Would Stay Away From
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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And I have heard stories of Jesus being able to walk, eat, and speak fluently (even to animals) immiediatly after his birth as well... I have even heard that Jesus was born blonde, blue eyed and with white skin, despite having a middle-eastern mother which supposedly proves his divinity and that caucasians are truely god's chosen people (according to a white supremist I had the misfortune of speaking with)...
Such embellishments are common among all stories and beliefs to make them more fantastical and exciting... I prefer think of these as the "special effects" to orally passed tales, lessons, and legends...
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I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#195515 - 11/20/10 01:43 PM
Re: Bogus Websites I Would Stay Away From
[Re: inkblister]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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I call them lies.
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#195516 - 11/20/10 01:45 PM
Re: Bogus Websites I Would Stay Away From
[Re: inkblister]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Ronnie, your two quotes are both by Christian apologists who give no real proof of their beliefs. The Biblical claim of the virgin birth is exactly as unbelievable as the claims made for earlier people.
It's the Bible's way of trying to "prove" that Jesus was divine and not just another man claiming to be the Messiah, since many others have made that same claim over time. I'm not disputing your beliefs, but just because the Bible says so isn't conclusive proof to objective observers.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#195517 - 11/20/10 01:59 PM
Re: Bogus Websites I Would Stay Away From
[Re: ghoti]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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It's the Bible's way of trying to "prove" that Jesus was divine and not just another man claiming to be the Messiah, since many others have made that same claim over time. I'm not disputing your beliefs, but just because the Bible says so isn't conclusive proof to objective observers.
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#195519 - 11/20/10 02:15 PM
Re: Bogus Websites I Would Stay Away From
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Which will heap sad results on unbelievers of the bible, sooner rather than later. Today virgin births are easily possible so why is it impossible in the days of Jesus for the Creator to cause a virgin birth of His son? By not having an earthly father Jesus had Gods DNA and since mans sperm is responsible for the blood in the child then original sin is not passed on by the blood to Jesus and He is and was without sin. So the knowledgeable bible schollars say.
Paul
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#195521 - 11/20/10 02:34 PM
Re: Bogus Websites I Would Stay Away From
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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By not having an earthly father Jesus had Gods DNA and since mans sperm is responsible for the blood in the child then original sin is not passed on by the blood to Jesus and He is and was without sin. So the knowledgeable bible schollars say.
Jews don't believe in 'original sin', so it makes me wonder exactly where the idea of it originated.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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