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#194766 - 10/28/10 10:34 AM Oh Dear God!
ævory
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Registered: 04/04/05
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They squealched some aspects of modern physics just so as to 'change' the writings on the wall?

sounds a bit like religion and those who changed the Bible by a word or two (actually, they were not even as bad as those physics guys).

That had to hurt. What are you suppose to believe?

http://www.cejournal.org/GRD/Realities.htm

Interestingly, though some of these architects of modern science were deeply religious individuals, the t endency to attend to the surface qualities of phenomena could not but in time lead to the dismissal of the whole notion of God and invisible causes in general. So it was that in the early 19th century, when the great French mathematician Pierre Simon Laplace was asked by Napoleon why he had not dedicated his most recent treatise to God, as was the usual practice, the latter replied, ?I have no need of that hypothesis.? By the time we arrive in the 20th century, with the Vienna Circle and the Logical Positivists, headed by Professor Moritz Schlick, philosophy was dealing mainly with language and common sense, which for all practical purposes amounted to a reduction of scientific discourse to what can be immediately observed. These influences led to a capping-off of discussion about many of the most fascinating aspects of modern physics, for instance, until well into the second half of the 20th century, all because such discussion would have dealt with invisible aspects of reality.

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#194767 - 10/28/10 10:36 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ævory]
ævory
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Posts: 9657
see...we're run by professors!
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#194769 - 10/28/10 11:46 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ævory]
ghoti
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Wow, that's one lengthy article and I read the first third or so and then just skimmed the rest.

The author divides science into a macro version which concentrates on forms and behaviors and a micro version whose focus is mathematics, chemical interactions, and structures and then implies that the two are at odds with each other. I totally disagree with that notion.

Observational science is an excellent way to find out how things operate, but chemistry, mathematics, and studies of microstructures are the key for understanding on a deeper level. Rather than being opposed to each other, the two approaches fill in gaps of understanding that each would fail to do on their own.

I don't get what ths has to do with religion, except that knowing more about science reveals more of the true complexity and beauty of nature than is apparent to the naked eye.
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#194783 - 10/28/10 01:33 PM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ghoti]
ævory
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Well I didn't ask you to read it ALL. But, gotta say, since you Did, I respect your opinion and take on it.

What ever happened to starting threads off of part of something that someone found? Isn't that how it's gone here before? Truly, I never expected you to read it all. Now, if I had posted the entire thing here...then, maybe.

Which, ghoti, came first, the micro or the macro?

I think it has much to do with the religious (?) debates (?) that go on here. Let me give you an example: you or another say this: "well...umm, one cannot take the bible at it's word because men have changed it. What can one believe?"

While, I say: What can one believe...the philosophers and scientists, physicists of long ago? Can I take them to have been on the path of truth when they seem, apparently, to have wanted to squealch any....ANY, findings or such which could lead to the 'furthering' belief and acceptance of God being a part of it? LOOK:

QUOTE: These influences led to a capping-off of discussion about many of the most fascinating aspects of modern physics, for instance, until well into the second half of the 20th century, all because such discussion would have dealt with invisible aspects of reality.END QUOTE

What I ask is....why the silencing? what was that about? I mean, I can completely understand a scientist not wanting to devote his findings to God..or give any recognition of God's hand in it ...a scientist who does not believe in a god of anything.....................................however, doesn't it sound like (and this is my take on what is in the posting) NOT ONLY did the philosophers and physicists of long ago have their own 'nonbelief' system, but they wanted to SILENCE the discovery (the talk) of connecting (to God) anything that was found thru observation by Anyone else as well. why?


I know the rebuttal, cus shakey has said it many times...but, it's a cop out!



Edited by ævory (10/28/10 01:36 PM)

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#194785 - 10/28/10 01:51 PM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ævory]
ghoti
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The macro, or observational, part came first since it's much easier to watch things happen than to try to understand why. People were observing nature long before mathematics and chemistry were ever discovered.

Once things like the microscope, advanced mathematics, chemistry, the genetic theory, etc. were developed it became possible to examine things at a level impossible by just naked-eye observation. That's where we began to see how things observed at the macro level were actually driven by micro events and interactions.

I've frankly never heard of any suppression of the study of physics in the early 20th century before reading this article. Actually a tremendous advance in physics occurred during that time period with Einstein's theories of relativity, many new developments in the understanding of electricity and electronics, the quantum mechanics theory, huge advances in astronomy and astrophysics, etc.

IMO there always has been and always will be a place for the hand of a creator in science. The more we know the more fantastic beauty and complexity is revealed about the universe and nature, and I become more convinced that some organizing force is behind it all.
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#194786 - 10/28/10 01:55 PM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ghoti]
ævory
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Ok, thank you so much.
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#195273 - 11/10/10 10:00 PM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ævory]
Paul I
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I remember as a kid having the Sunday School experience which was sort of compulsary. As a teenager it was follow the crowd as in go compulsory. As a college science student it was science has the answers and Ayn Rand tells you how to behave. Maturity, such as it was, revealed the falsehood of the traditional church and a search for a more metaphysical God. Here it now rests.
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#195279 - 11/11/10 06:39 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: Paul I]
MerryA
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Ayn Rand IMO wrote some pretty cool stuff (The Education of OverSoul Seven) but most of her stuff was nuts.

I was raised in a fundy church then I studied metaphysics for about 20 years and ended up at a "the" traditional protestant church. LOL - life (God) sends people on different paths.
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#195283 - 11/11/10 11:25 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: MerryA]
Deo
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Posts: 127
aevory, are you implying that there were deliberate squelching or silencing of any scientific evidence over the centuries which might have led to conclusive proof of the existance of god? Another conspiracy theory.....
Deo

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#195442 - 11/14/10 10:01 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: Deo]
Deo
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 127
Hmm.. not reply aevory? Sorry for that last remark but you did call me a troll. Thank you for posting that link. It was a good introduction to an area that interests me i.e. the "Philosophy of Science". There is a free ebook download on this site:
http://www.reddit.com/r/PhilosophyofScie...cience_for_new/
It deals with the subject area of the post i.e Rationalism vs empiricism. Any comments.
Deo

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#195474 - 11/17/10 07:21 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ghoti]
ævory
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Originally Posted By: ghoti
The macro, or observational, part came first since it's much easier to watch things happen than to try to understand why. People were observing nature long before mathematics and chemistry were ever discovered.

Once things like the microscope, advanced mathematics, chemistry, the genetic theory, etc. were developed it became possible to examine things at a level impossible by just naked-eye observation. That's where we began to see how things observed at the macro level were actually driven by micro events and interactions.

I've frankly never heard of any suppression of the study of physics in the early 20th century before reading this article. Actually a tremendous advance in physics occurred during that time period with Einstein's theories of relativity, many new developments in the understanding of electricity and electronics, the quantum mechanics theory, huge advances in astronomy and astrophysics, etc.

IMO there always has been and always will be a place for the hand of a creator in science. The more we know the more fantastic beauty and complexity is revealed about the universe and nature, and I become more convinced that some organizing force is behind it all.


You know, I see this counter argument all the time here to 'belief in God': you cannot see Him, can you? Where is He buried...where is Jesus buried? He's like the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus...He doesn't exist. Prove He exists!

Belief is not something that involves the functioning of the eyes. Take for instance my neighbor who is blind and says that the Bible is simple. Well, she has and seeks the Holy Spirit to help her see (understand).

When you search for the meaning of nature, of life..any of it, do you also seek the Holy Spirit's help like those who seek meaning and direction through the Holy Book? Or do you not even consider that at all...does it never enter your mind to ask the Holy Spirit for help when you go to the wilderness and have some epiphany or 'experience'? [Could one say that you think pretty highly of yourself for this, alone? or is that not fair to judge?].........................Do you attribute the experience you have to the Holy Spirit coming upon you with understanding, or do you take all the credit for it? [just asking, it is not an interigation nor meant to make anyone upset]

If you cannot see with the naked eye that which you wish to see ('to understand' our Creator) then you are using that which man created --- to quote you:

Once things like the microscope, advanced mathematics, chemistry, the genetic theory, etc. were developed it became possible to examine things...

Can I include physics in the above as well? Ok, so with these advancements (by the hand of man) we can examine life at a deeper level. I agree. However, perhaps the meaning of "My ways are not your ways" as written in the Bible obscures any understanding of God Himself if you think about the idea (not fact) that you don't get any closer to understanding the nature of God, but rather, you get closer to understanding nature (that which God created) and no matter how much you study nature, His beauty was meant for us to give thanks for, not for dissecting---after all, you have to go beyond what God did....He didn't need to 'see' beyond that which He was capable of---All.

It makes me believe that we need the Holy Spirit and we need to seek understanding thru the Bible.

And on the topic of dissecting nature, do you consider it ok to kill a plant or animal for study with the motivation of understanding God and His works?

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#195488 - 11/18/10 06:37 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ævory]
ævory
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
I don't recall if you believe in the Holy Spirit, ghoti. Do you?
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#195558 - 11/22/10 06:24 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ghoti]
ævory
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
Originally Posted By: ghoti
The macro, or observational, part came first since it's much easier to watch things happen than to try to understand why. People were observing nature long before mathematics and chemistry were ever discovered.

Once things like the microscope, advanced mathematics, chemistry, the genetic theory, etc. were developed it became possible to examine things at a level impossible by just naked-eye observation. That's where we began to see how things observed at the macro level were actually driven by micro events and interactions.

I've frankly never heard of any suppression of the study of physics in the early 20th century before reading this article. Actually a tremendous advance in physics occurred during that time period with Einstein's theories of relativity, many new developments in the understanding of electricity and electronics, the quantum mechanics theory, huge advances in astronomy and astrophysics, etc.

IMO there always has been and always will be a place for the hand of a creator in science. The more we know the more fantastic beauty and complexity is revealed about the universe and nature, and I become more convinced that some organizing force is behind it all.


When Were math and science really discovered? I'm just sorry that we don't have a science forum so that we could read your knowledge and that of others as to what is truth and fallasy in that realm. It would really be a scream, I think.

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#195559 - 11/22/10 06:45 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ghoti]
ævory
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Originally Posted By: ghoti


I don't get what ths has to do with religion, except that knowing more about science reveals more of the true complexity and beauty of nature than is apparent to the naked eye.


As I don't get what trying to disrespect and disprove a man/woman's beliefs about religion and the Bible has to do with science, math, physics, yada yada...

Where do you see it fitting in in the way of 'allowing each to have their own opinions' when it comes to BELIEF?

To me, it is simply using one thing or another to dis (poo-poo) what is appropriate to this forum.

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#195584 - 11/22/10 01:21 PM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ævory]
ghoti
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Ronda I have said OVER AND OVER that I believe we must each find our own way to communicate with the creator. If focusing solely on the Bible works for you and others, I'm fine with that, but it just doesn't do it for many folks.

What sets me off is ANYONE who comes here and insists that their pathway is the only correct one and that everyone who doesn't follow their lead is wrong. I was told that wasn't true by a direct communication with the creator and I believe it firmly.

What's wrong with each person finding a spiritual position that works for them and then simply respecting the fact that others may disagree? Why is anyone else's possible placement in the afterlife anybody's business but their own, anyway?
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#195593 - 11/22/10 01:55 PM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ghoti]
ronniechoate34
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Ghoti, one day we all will stand before God. Why must you choose to believe in mankind instead of a true redeemer of your spirit, one Jesus Christ?


Man is fallen ghoti. Men are hopelessley evil, wicked incarnate and if left to our own devices we will only continue to fester.


Edited by ronniechoate34 (11/22/10 01:56 PM)

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#195602 - 11/22/10 02:20 PM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ronniechoate34]
Paulwa_dup1
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You believe there is some organizing force behind creation? Ghoti if you truly believe the entity you spoke to was the creator I don't think you would be looking at nature in an attempt to communicate with the creator of it all. You would know with out any weakness in faith that you had spoken to him directly and you would not still be looking for answers in nature and science. That is why I think we need to question any supernatural or such contacts. Satan can appear as an angel of light to anyone. I am not saying that is what happened to you but you do need to question that experience and not allow it to become the foundation of your beliefs. God wants us to find Him by searching for Him with a strong desire to find Him and His rules for life since He created us. It is a very difficult and tenuous trip, not a goal that comes easily but for christians it is simply accepting His gift of salvation to mankind through His son Jesus and so easy a child can do it. Any other path is tenuous and hard and who knows what the results will lead too. We must all choose eternity, wisely because in the end we will stand before our eternal Judge to explain our lives. Or we will just cease to exist. The only hope for mankind is faith. Choose wisely.
Paul

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#195615 - 11/22/10 03:12 PM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti
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All I can say is that my vision was totally real and convincing to me, but I don't expect anyone else to just accept it for themselves. There are far too many charlatans using religion to enrich themselves or mislead others out there, and IMO each person should rely on what's inside their own heart rather than blindly following anyone else.

I have my own strong convictions that there is one and only one true creator, that he is totally loving and kind, and he wants us to treat each other that way, too. That message was strongly communicated to me and I try in my own poor and flawed way to follow it. If you choose to put your faith in Jesus and the trinity of the Bible then I respect that, since that is the pathway that works for you.

Just don't go around telling others that they are wrong and you are right. You have zero authority for such a position other than your personal beliefs, and I guarantee you that mine are just as strong as anyone else's.
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#195616 - 11/22/10 03:17 PM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ronniechoate34]
ghoti
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Originally Posted By: ronniechoate34
Ghoti, one day we all will stand before God. Why must you choose to believe in mankind instead of a true redeemer of your spirit, one Jesus Christ?


Man is fallen ghoti. Men are hopelessley evil, wicked incarnate and if left to our own devices we will only continue to fester.


Ronnie, my experiences with others has been that the vast majority of people are kindly and compassionate when treated that way in return. If you're convinced that all people are "hopelessly evil" then you sure hang out with different folks than I do.
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#195655 - 11/23/10 01:42 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ghoti]
Paulwa_dup1
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Ghoti I don't say anyone is wrong on their personal paths but Jesus Himself said He is the only way to heaven and that any other way would be like theives and robbers trying to break in. I am just quoting what Jesus said in the bible and I suspect that is why so many people religious and otherwise deny the deity that Jesus says He is the son of God. That way they can accept His good teachings on loving our fellow man and not worry about the other things He said concernng Him being part of the triune Godhead. They accept the parts of the bible fits their own views and dismiss the rest as mythology and such. Guess that is the difference between fundamentalists and all other religious groups that don't hold with a literal interpretation of the bible as the word of God. Even many of those will have read and understood and made the connection for repentance and salvation though denying much of the bible as truth. I think most christians, especially fundamentalists, are deemed to be saying other religions and spiritual ways are false. We are not to condemn those who see a different path, though many off us do just this and turn many people off from searching truth from the bible. I don't know the answer to that dilemna. In the end we all choose our own pathways to eternity. Just pray God will be merciful to His creation on that final judgement day.
Paul

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#195656 - 11/23/10 03:12 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti
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Yet your only "proof" is that the Bible says so, and that isn't convincing to me and many others. You have chosen to believe it, and yet my personal vision tells me it isn't true.

I prefer to accept and believe what was told to me in that vision rather than what it says in your book. The Bible is only one out of innumerable other holy books that ALL claim to be the word of God. You've chosen believe this book and people living in different cultures and times have chosen very different ones.

So you can keep telling me that Jesus is the only pathway to salvation, but you're never going to convince me. All I've ever asked is that we at least show enough respect for each others beliefs to not waste our time trying to make religious converts.
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#195659 - 11/23/10 09:05 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ghoti]
ronniechoate34
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Originally Posted By: ghoti
Originally Posted By: ronniechoate34
Ghoti, one day we all will stand before God. Why must you choose to believe in mankind instead of a true redeemer of your spirit, one Jesus Christ?


Man is fallen ghoti. Men are hopelessley evil, wicked incarnate and if left to our own devices we will only continue to fester.


Ronnie, my experiences with others has been that the vast majority of people are kindly and compassionate when treated that way in return. If you're convinced that all people are "hopelessly evil" then you sure hang out with different folks than I do.



Sin is here to stay until the rightousness of God shines through. I tell you what, ghoti. No man is good and we all have an inclination towards evil. And if you don't believe that then you are not only lying to yourself but you've also got the devil deceiving you too.


There is a way that seems right to men but it's not the rightousness of God at work. It's double minded men who pretend that they can have both good and evil that are causing many problems in this world today.


If you don't accept the rightousness of Jesus Christ, repent and receive the Holy Ghost then you are never gonna see this truth. I pray that God removes the scales from your eyes before it is too late.

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#195660 - 11/23/10 10:08 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ronniechoate34]
ghoti
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So I was told to show kindness and compassion to others but my message came from Satan, and you think your belief in Jesus allows you to go around condemning and judging others. Is that what you're saying?

Seems like something is wrong in your reasoning there.
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#195661 - 11/23/10 11:16 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ghoti]
ronniechoate34
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Theosophy is also Luciferian, theosophists see Lucifer as the opressed god of light. While the God of the Bible is presented as the god of evil and darkness. They believe in proper human relations and they believe in a convergence of the world religions. They believe that all paths lead to god. Also,they seek to dedicate the world to Lucifer.


Does any of this sound familiar?


Personally I think it's a dead end and a diversion. I believe that the ultimate goal is to bring terror and death upon those people who do not go with the flow.

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#195662 - 11/23/10 11:23 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ronniechoate34]
ghoti
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Only your opinion, Ronnie. It carries no authority with me at all. Christianity has certainly been used to bring terror to plenty of people over the ages, and that goes totally against my philosophy.

My beliefs bring me peace and serenity. Can you say the same for yours?



Edited by ghoti (11/23/10 11:25 AM)
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#195663 - 11/23/10 11:37 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: ronniechoate34]
flicka
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I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7
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#195666 - 11/23/10 01:35 PM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: flicka]
Paulwa_dup1
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But all things work together for good for those who love God! Looking at Jesus as just a man removes any chance of salvation for eternal life. That is the way Jesus see's it as recorded in the bible. So without Jesus as Lord we are free to pick and choose our own path and live just as we like. Que Se Ra,Se Ra. :-)
Peace
Paul

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#195672 - 11/23/10 05:11 PM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
Paul I
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Flicka, it sounds like God is a puppeteer.
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#195673 - 11/23/10 05:12 PM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
Paul I
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Flicka, is God a puppeteer?
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#195675 - 11/24/10 01:01 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: Paul I]
flicka
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I don't think so, Paul I. In fact, when we look at nature, it seems obvious that once anything is 'created', it is on its own to survive.

Plato would say that what God is describing in the verse from Isaiah was the invisibe world of 'forms'. This is the place where our knowledge of what things look like comes from. In this realm, all that exists is in perfect form.

For example, when we visualize a circle, we imagine it as it exists in the invisible realm, but applying it to the visible world removes its perfection.

If you draw a circle, differences in the thickness in the line will change as lead is removed from the point of the pencil. Or, the amount of pressure we apply to the paper will make a difference in its perfection. Plato believed this applied to all visible things. We cannot be perfect in this visible realm. He had some pretty impressives theories.


Edited by flicka (11/24/10 01:12 AM)
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#195678 - 11/24/10 05:59 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: flicka]
corlorde
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Posts: 9246
Originally Posted By: flicka

For example, when we visualize a circle, we imagine it as it exists in the invisible realm, but applying it to the visible world removes its perfection.



Unless the invisible world is where perfection is and that, we cannot see it so we are unable to see perfection, so we are imperfect and perfection is only conceptualized in our imagination.
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#195681 - 11/24/10 10:32 AM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: corlorde]
flicka
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Correct. I enjoyed Plato's theories the most in Philosophy.
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#195692 - 11/24/10 02:49 PM Re: Oh Dear God! [Re: flicka]
Paul I
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Posts: 7913
So as long as perfection exists only in our minds everyone's idea of God can be as they choose to make it. It seems that visualizing
anything is in the mind rather than an invisible world because it's
visible to me. A mental visible circle may be perfect but is has no personality, does not communicate, has no biological life, etc. I find it impossible to visualize a God, perfect or imperfect. It seems this does not apply to living things.
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