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#194111 - 10/15/10 01:05 PM Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God [Re: ghoti]
Paulwa_dup1
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No pre programed, Ghoti. If God knows how we finish and without entering or biasing an iindividual how can that be preprogramming? If boats float down a river and you know before hand which boats will make it through whatever disasters, how would that make you a pre programmer? I don't understand your convoluted logic on the matter.
Paul

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#194112 - 10/15/10 01:32 PM Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti
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Ok, to use your analogy, we are crew members on boats going down a dangerous river. It's full of rapids and waterfalls, and we are each hoping that through skill and luck we'll arrive at the end safely.

But God is watching over it all and he already knows which boats will hit a rock and sink or get washed over the falls and which will get to the end unscathed. That means that no combination of skill and luck will save the doomed boats no matter how hard the crew works at it. They're as good as dead right from the outset.

That's the paradox.
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#194113 - 10/15/10 01:59 PM Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
flicka
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Originally Posted By: Paulwa_dup1
The bible mentions the age of accountability in children

It actually doesn't say anything specific about an age of accountability. It is an assumption we have made.
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#194120 - 10/15/10 04:01 PM Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God [Re: flicka]
Paulwa_dup1
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So God responsible for the boats that are lost, Ghoti? The paradox is only in your observation and thinking. None in my thinking.

God determines that age for each individual when the conscious and moral mentality is working in each child. It presumably is a different age for each child Flicka.
Paul

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#194124 - 10/15/10 04:23 PM Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
flicka
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Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
Originally Posted By: Paulwa_dup1

God determines that age for each individual when the conscious and moral mentality is working in each child. It presumably is a different age for each child Flicka.

There is really no mention of that in the Bible, Paul, it is an assumed position. I think it is interesting that although this is not specifically addressed in the Bible, it is one thing most biblical religions/denominations agree on.
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#194126 - 10/15/10 04:25 PM Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti
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If God created all the boaters and boats and some of them were built knowing that they would fail, then of course God would be responsible. Each inividual was either made to succeed or fail right from the beginning and nothing they could do would ever change that.

The paradox is classic, and you must be blind if you can't see it.
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#194133 - 10/15/10 05:05 PM Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God [Re: ghoti]
Paulwa_dup1
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Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
I see you as blind and it is pointless to argue about it. But one other analogy. You build a bunch of wind up toy robots, wind them up and put them at one end of a table pointing at the other end. At the other end is a basket they will march into if they go that direction. The rest will bias direction and fall off the edge to the floor. Say you watch the test and see which little robot ends up in the basket. Now because you built those little robots and know which ones succeed..did you cause those particular robots to make it and the rest to fail. What had you to do with any of them other than to make them and to observe ahead of time who would fail or succeed? Any outcome could happen without your involvement in any way..how is that predestination or anything other than free will?
My last word on this subject.
Paul


Edited by Paulwa_dup1 (10/15/10 05:14 PM)

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#194135 - 10/15/10 05:11 PM Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti
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Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
And I see you as arrogantly disrespectful toward everyone who disagrees with you. IMO in all the years of your evangelizing here you've probably driven several people away from Christianity and made zero converts to your beliefs.
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#194136 - 10/15/10 05:25 PM Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God [Re: ghoti]
Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
Sorry you feel that way Ghoti, I don't feel arrogant.. maybe it is because I have total faith in what I believe and others are still trying to formulate a belief system that works for them. Considering my total allegiance to God and the bible I cannot see any truth but what comes from the bible. I have studied some and read other religious works but have chosen the bible as holding the only truth to be had in this world. If that makes me arrogant then so be it. Those who have turned away from the bible or even my beliefs are strongly persuaded some other way and would have gone another direction anyway. Don't think I have driven anyone away who wasn't already headed somewhere else. I don't put anyone's beliefs down but from where I stand I can only feel they are headed the wrong way according to the doctrine of the bible I follow and the words of Jesus.
I am sorry if any feel offended by my position but it is a one way proposition and there is no other direction I can go on the matter.
Paul

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#194139 - 10/15/10 05:45 PM Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
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Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
You can start by simply accepting the fact that others have made different choices about their spirituality than you and are just as sure they are right as you are. It's an individual choice, and you should respect the rights of others to disagree without condemning them.
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#194143 - 10/15/10 06:01 PM Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God [Re: ghoti]
Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
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I will try to do better in that respect Ghoti.:-)
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#194147 - 10/15/10 07:11 PM Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
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Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
IMO that's all anyone has ever asked of you.
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#194149 - 10/15/10 07:33 PM Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God [Re: ghoti]
Paulwa_dup1
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Loc: Washington
As long as I am not required or asked to bend a knee to Baal. ;-)
Paul

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#194156 - 10/16/10 04:59 AM Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ævory
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
Originally Posted By: Paulwa_dup1
I see you as blind and it is pointless to argue about it. But one other analogy. You build a bunch of wind up toy robots, wind them up and put them at one end of a table pointing at the other end. At the other end is a basket they will march into if they go that direction. The rest will bias direction and fall off the edge to the floor. Say you watch the test and see which little robot ends up in the basket. Now because you built those little robots and know which ones succeed..did you cause those particular robots to make it and the rest to fail. What had you to do with any of them other than to make them and to observe ahead of time who would fail or succeed? Any outcome could happen without your involvement in any way..how is that predestination or anything other than free will?
My last word on this subject.
Paul


I like that analogy, Paul!

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#194158 - 10/16/10 11:54 AM Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God [Re: ævory]
Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
Thank you Ronda. I don't know how it could be described any other way to prove the point of free will.
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