#193996 - 10/13/10 11:16 AM
Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
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starlight.2
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Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 796
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Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
Journalist Christopher Hitchens is one of the world's most famous atheists. His brother, Peter, insists that a civilized world must believe in God. The brothers have publicly argued over faith for years. But now that Christopher Hitchens has been diagnosed with cancer, the theoretical argument has become real.
Since Hitchens' cancer diagnosis in June, he has received thousands of letters and e-mails, some from believers asserting that he's getting what he deserves, more from people saying they're praying for his recovery. Hitchens says he has been overwhelmed by the outpouring. But he is annoyed that some writers hope he'll have a last-minute conversion to Christianity.
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Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.
--Dalai Lama
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#194003 - 10/13/10 12:13 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: starlight.2]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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But he will not be half as annoyed as he will be when he see's the gates of hell and the smoke and fire coming suddenly upon him! Then he will realize how stupid he has been thinking but far too late to do anything about it. He will only be able to ponder things as he waits the final resurrection and for him the final accounting at the white throne judgement. This period of time may be ther only punishment many people will receive if they have done good all their lives but have refused Jesus as their saviour.
Paul
Edited by Paulwa_dup1 (10/13/10 12:14 PM)
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#194047 - 10/13/10 09:15 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Paulwa, both of my parents were wonderful people who helped many others throughout their lifetimes but were non-religious. Your constant condemnation of people like them to an eternitity of burning in hell simply because they didn't follow Christianity really pisses me off.
Just because you believe in some warped philosophy in which blind faith in Jesus by people who live as total assholes trumps good works by non-believers doesn't make it so, and I'm frankly sick of hearing you repeat it over and over. I'm totally confident that we'll be judged by how we lived our lives rather than blind faith.
This passage says it perfectly clearly:
James 2:15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#194056 - 10/14/10 01:20 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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It is not my words Ghoti, it is the words of Jesus Christ, and the faith in these scriptures you quote is faith in the shed blood sacrifice of Jesus to save us from our sins. And if we accept Him as our saviour then we are to treat the world as He would by giving and loving but good works will not save us, only accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and saviour will do this.
Concerning your parents and all others who have been non religious all their lives, we cannot say they all were lost because we don't know anything about what happened in their personal lives prior to passing on. We don't know how God touches them as they are passing. We do know that if Jesus is rejected firmly that there is no salvation for that person. But I personally think that if a person is good, it will not be lost without a final attempt to save them. I think that is a reasonable concept and one that would not necessarily be mentioned in God's word. Individually we stand or fall in the finality. My opinion.
Paul
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#194069 - 10/14/10 04:58 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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No one really knows how we'll be judged in the afterlife. Every religion throughout history has given a different answer that usually revolves around allegiance to whichever deity happens to be most popular in that culture.
One thing they nearly all have in common is that a major factor in judgement is the kindness and compassion you have shown to others. Jesus also mentions that theme many times throughout the Bible and I'm betting that's going to be the major item of judgement.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#194080 - 10/14/10 08:05 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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To christians, Jesus our creator (as the Word) will be mankinds judge at the great white throne judgement and though He did mention compassion for our needy brothers as a rule for life He did put other firm rules ahead of that..such as accepting Him and repenting of our sins. Give a cup of water in His name, etc. I doubt giving a cup of water in alla's or buddha's name or such would even count in Jesus eyes. Thust the word Christian. So that explains where christians are coming from. Other religions,gods and leaders will of course see things much differently and thagt is their right of free will. Sorry I can't agree these other religions matter in the least to a christian for veracity because that would be calling our saviour a liar and a fraud. He said the world will hate you but don't worry they hated me before they hated you! So you see how it is.
Paul
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#194082 - 10/14/10 09:07 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
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Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Sorry I can't agree these other religions matter in the least to a christian for veracity because that would be calling our saviour a liar and a fraud.
Yet you are more than willing to call him a liar when he said this: "whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world".
Nope. You do not accept that as true. Why not?
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#194083 - 10/14/10 09:58 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Because I do not read that verbiage as you do. The book of life was written from the foundation of the world but those names were not found because they had been removed by God for His own reasons. The bible says names can be blotted out of the book of life. You did know that did you not Flicka? I am sure you have read those very scriptures. I do not call God, Jesus or the scriptures liars anywhere, period.
Paul
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#194086 - 10/14/10 10:15 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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You did know that did you not Flicka?
I know what these verses in Revelation say, and they say some names are not written in the Book of Life. It's as plain as day.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#194087 - 10/14/10 10:45 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Presuming you are right what does this mean to you that some names were never included in the book of life?
Paul
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#194090 - 10/14/10 11:04 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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It means that some beings were born with a 'dark' soul and predestined for the dark side.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#194094 - 10/15/10 05:26 AM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ævory
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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... those names were not found because they had been removed by God for His own reasons.
Paul
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#194099 - 10/15/10 08:25 AM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Greg
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Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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Presuming you are right what does this mean to you that some names were never included in the book of life?
Paul
If that is the case then why have the age of accountability explanation. Some people are damned at birth from what you're saying.
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#194107 - 10/15/10 12:12 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Greg]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Greg who the hell are you posting too? You are not making any sense..
The bible does say some vessels are made to destruction in allegory to human state of being in certain cases..but is God referring to His angel creations or human? The bible mentions the age of accountability in children so it stands to reason that children before that point are saved by some special rule of God. The bible as far as I know, does not delve any deeper into this subject but it does eliminate the damned at birth claim. The fact that God knows what choices an individual will make through their lives may make it seem that there are 'darksouls'predestined to destruction, but there is only one person that I know of who was predestined and that is the son of God, Jesus.
Paul
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#194110 - 10/15/10 12:32 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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If God can see the future as well as the past, then many people are indeed predestined for damnation from birth. They may try to overcome their destiny, but God already knows they will fail in the attempt.
IMO this is the paradox of free will if you accept a totally omnipotent God. We think we have free will and live our lives as if we do, but really all our choices were known right from birth so it's all just an illusion. The entire concept of cause and effect is just a cruel hoax.
Since God supposedly made each of us, why design some so they are pre-progammed to fail?
IMO you can't have it both ways, which is why I believe that the creator simply made each of us as a blank slate and we will be judged according to the truly free choices we make in life.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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