#193996 - 10/13/10 11:16 AM
Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
|
starlight.2
Member
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 796
|
Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
Journalist Christopher Hitchens is one of the world's most famous atheists. His brother, Peter, insists that a civilized world must believe in God. The brothers have publicly argued over faith for years. But now that Christopher Hitchens has been diagnosed with cancer, the theoretical argument has become real.
Since Hitchens' cancer diagnosis in June, he has received thousands of letters and e-mails, some from believers asserting that he's getting what he deserves, more from people saying they're praying for his recovery. Hitchens says he has been overwhelmed by the outpouring. But he is annoyed that some writers hope he'll have a last-minute conversion to Christianity.
_________________________
Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.
--Dalai Lama
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194003 - 10/13/10 12:13 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: starlight.2]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
But he will not be half as annoyed as he will be when he see's the gates of hell and the smoke and fire coming suddenly upon him! Then he will realize how stupid he has been thinking but far too late to do anything about it. He will only be able to ponder things as he waits the final resurrection and for him the final accounting at the white throne judgement. This period of time may be ther only punishment many people will receive if they have done good all their lives but have refused Jesus as their saviour.
Paul
Edited by Paulwa_dup1 (10/13/10 12:14 PM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194047 - 10/13/10 09:15 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
Paulwa, both of my parents were wonderful people who helped many others throughout their lifetimes but were non-religious. Your constant condemnation of people like them to an eternitity of burning in hell simply because they didn't follow Christianity really pisses me off.
Just because you believe in some warped philosophy in which blind faith in Jesus by people who live as total assholes trumps good works by non-believers doesn't make it so, and I'm frankly sick of hearing you repeat it over and over. I'm totally confident that we'll be judged by how we lived our lives rather than blind faith.
This passage says it perfectly clearly:
James 2:15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194056 - 10/14/10 01:20 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ghoti]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
It is not my words Ghoti, it is the words of Jesus Christ, and the faith in these scriptures you quote is faith in the shed blood sacrifice of Jesus to save us from our sins. And if we accept Him as our saviour then we are to treat the world as He would by giving and loving but good works will not save us, only accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and saviour will do this.
Concerning your parents and all others who have been non religious all their lives, we cannot say they all were lost because we don't know anything about what happened in their personal lives prior to passing on. We don't know how God touches them as they are passing. We do know that if Jesus is rejected firmly that there is no salvation for that person. But I personally think that if a person is good, it will not be lost without a final attempt to save them. I think that is a reasonable concept and one that would not necessarily be mentioned in God's word. Individually we stand or fall in the finality. My opinion.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194069 - 10/14/10 04:58 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
No one really knows how we'll be judged in the afterlife. Every religion throughout history has given a different answer that usually revolves around allegiance to whichever deity happens to be most popular in that culture.
One thing they nearly all have in common is that a major factor in judgement is the kindness and compassion you have shown to others. Jesus also mentions that theme many times throughout the Bible and I'm betting that's going to be the major item of judgement.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194080 - 10/14/10 08:05 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ghoti]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
To christians, Jesus our creator (as the Word) will be mankinds judge at the great white throne judgement and though He did mention compassion for our needy brothers as a rule for life He did put other firm rules ahead of that..such as accepting Him and repenting of our sins. Give a cup of water in His name, etc. I doubt giving a cup of water in alla's or buddha's name or such would even count in Jesus eyes. Thust the word Christian. So that explains where christians are coming from. Other religions,gods and leaders will of course see things much differently and thagt is their right of free will. Sorry I can't agree these other religions matter in the least to a christian for veracity because that would be calling our saviour a liar and a fraud. He said the world will hate you but don't worry they hated me before they hated you! So you see how it is.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194082 - 10/14/10 09:07 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
|
Sorry I can't agree these other religions matter in the least to a christian for veracity because that would be calling our saviour a liar and a fraud.
Yet you are more than willing to call him a liar when he said this: "whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world".
Nope. You do not accept that as true. Why not?
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194083 - 10/14/10 09:58 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: flicka]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
Because I do not read that verbiage as you do. The book of life was written from the foundation of the world but those names were not found because they had been removed by God for His own reasons. The bible says names can be blotted out of the book of life. You did know that did you not Flicka? I am sure you have read those very scriptures. I do not call God, Jesus or the scriptures liars anywhere, period.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194086 - 10/14/10 10:15 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
|
You did know that did you not Flicka?
I know what these verses in Revelation say, and they say some names are not written in the Book of Life. It's as plain as day.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194087 - 10/14/10 10:45 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: flicka]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
Presuming you are right what does this mean to you that some names were never included in the book of life?
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194090 - 10/14/10 11:04 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
|
It means that some beings were born with a 'dark' soul and predestined for the dark side.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194094 - 10/15/10 05:26 AM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
|
... those names were not found because they had been removed by God for His own reasons.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194099 - 10/15/10 08:25 AM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
|
Presuming you are right what does this mean to you that some names were never included in the book of life?
Paul
If that is the case then why have the age of accountability explanation. Some people are damned at birth from what you're saying.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194107 - 10/15/10 12:12 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Greg]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
Greg who the hell are you posting too? You are not making any sense..
The bible does say some vessels are made to destruction in allegory to human state of being in certain cases..but is God referring to His angel creations or human? The bible mentions the age of accountability in children so it stands to reason that children before that point are saved by some special rule of God. The bible as far as I know, does not delve any deeper into this subject but it does eliminate the damned at birth claim. The fact that God knows what choices an individual will make through their lives may make it seem that there are 'darksouls'predestined to destruction, but there is only one person that I know of who was predestined and that is the son of God, Jesus.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194110 - 10/15/10 12:32 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
If God can see the future as well as the past, then many people are indeed predestined for damnation from birth. They may try to overcome their destiny, but God already knows they will fail in the attempt.
IMO this is the paradox of free will if you accept a totally omnipotent God. We think we have free will and live our lives as if we do, but really all our choices were known right from birth so it's all just an illusion. The entire concept of cause and effect is just a cruel hoax.
Since God supposedly made each of us, why design some so they are pre-progammed to fail?
IMO you can't have it both ways, which is why I believe that the creator simply made each of us as a blank slate and we will be judged according to the truly free choices we make in life.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194111 - 10/15/10 01:05 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ghoti]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
No pre programed, Ghoti. If God knows how we finish and without entering or biasing an iindividual how can that be preprogramming? If boats float down a river and you know before hand which boats will make it through whatever disasters, how would that make you a pre programmer? I don't understand your convoluted logic on the matter.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194112 - 10/15/10 01:32 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
Ok, to use your analogy, we are crew members on boats going down a dangerous river. It's full of rapids and waterfalls, and we are each hoping that through skill and luck we'll arrive at the end safely.
But God is watching over it all and he already knows which boats will hit a rock and sink or get washed over the falls and which will get to the end unscathed. That means that no combination of skill and luck will save the doomed boats no matter how hard the crew works at it. They're as good as dead right from the outset.
That's the paradox.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194113 - 10/15/10 01:59 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
|
The bible mentions the age of accountability in children
It actually doesn't say anything specific about an age of accountability. It is an assumption we have made.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194120 - 10/15/10 04:01 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: flicka]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
So God responsible for the boats that are lost, Ghoti? The paradox is only in your observation and thinking. None in my thinking.
God determines that age for each individual when the conscious and moral mentality is working in each child. It presumably is a different age for each child Flicka.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194124 - 10/15/10 04:23 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
|
God determines that age for each individual when the conscious and moral mentality is working in each child. It presumably is a different age for each child Flicka.
There is really no mention of that in the Bible, Paul, it is an assumed position. I think it is interesting that although this is not specifically addressed in the Bible, it is one thing most biblical religions/denominations agree on.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194126 - 10/15/10 04:25 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
If God created all the boaters and boats and some of them were built knowing that they would fail, then of course God would be responsible. Each inividual was either made to succeed or fail right from the beginning and nothing they could do would ever change that.
The paradox is classic, and you must be blind if you can't see it.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194133 - 10/15/10 05:05 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ghoti]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
I see you as blind and it is pointless to argue about it. But one other analogy. You build a bunch of wind up toy robots, wind them up and put them at one end of a table pointing at the other end. At the other end is a basket they will march into if they go that direction. The rest will bias direction and fall off the edge to the floor. Say you watch the test and see which little robot ends up in the basket. Now because you built those little robots and know which ones succeed..did you cause those particular robots to make it and the rest to fail. What had you to do with any of them other than to make them and to observe ahead of time who would fail or succeed? Any outcome could happen without your involvement in any way..how is that predestination or anything other than free will?
My last word on this subject.
Paul
Edited by Paulwa_dup1 (10/15/10 05:14 PM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194135 - 10/15/10 05:11 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
And I see you as arrogantly disrespectful toward everyone who disagrees with you. IMO in all the years of your evangelizing here you've probably driven several people away from Christianity and made zero converts to your beliefs.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194136 - 10/15/10 05:25 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ghoti]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
Sorry you feel that way Ghoti, I don't feel arrogant.. maybe it is because I have total faith in what I believe and others are still trying to formulate a belief system that works for them. Considering my total allegiance to God and the bible I cannot see any truth but what comes from the bible. I have studied some and read other religious works but have chosen the bible as holding the only truth to be had in this world. If that makes me arrogant then so be it. Those who have turned away from the bible or even my beliefs are strongly persuaded some other way and would have gone another direction anyway. Don't think I have driven anyone away who wasn't already headed somewhere else. I don't put anyone's beliefs down but from where I stand I can only feel they are headed the wrong way according to the doctrine of the bible I follow and the words of Jesus.
I am sorry if any feel offended by my position but it is a one way proposition and there is no other direction I can go on the matter.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194139 - 10/15/10 05:45 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
You can start by simply accepting the fact that others have made different choices about their spirituality than you and are just as sure they are right as you are. It's an individual choice, and you should respect the rights of others to disagree without condemning them.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194143 - 10/15/10 06:01 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ghoti]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
I will try to do better in that respect Ghoti.:-)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194147 - 10/15/10 07:11 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
IMO that's all anyone has ever asked of you.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194149 - 10/15/10 07:33 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ghoti]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
As long as I am not required or asked to bend a knee to Baal. ;-)
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194156 - 10/16/10 04:59 AM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
|
I see you as blind and it is pointless to argue about it. But one other analogy. You build a bunch of wind up toy robots, wind them up and put them at one end of a table pointing at the other end. At the other end is a basket they will march into if they go that direction. The rest will bias direction and fall off the edge to the floor. Say you watch the test and see which little robot ends up in the basket. Now because you built those little robots and know which ones succeed..did you cause those particular robots to make it and the rest to fail. What had you to do with any of them other than to make them and to observe ahead of time who would fail or succeed? Any outcome could happen without your involvement in any way..how is that predestination or anything other than free will?
My last word on this subject.
Paul
I like that analogy, Paul!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194158 - 10/16/10 11:54 AM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ævory]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
Thank you Ronda. I don't know how it could be described any other way to prove the point of free will.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194159 - 10/16/10 03:16 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
|
The problem in your analogy is that the robots have no free will... they just walk straight ahead and have no free will to decide to turn or stop... They are destined to walk off the table on the path predetermined by where the creator placed them, thus they have no other choice to than to fall where the creator decided...
bad analogy from my perspective...
_________________________
I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194160 - 10/16/10 03:19 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
|
Lol...it is no way analogous. Robots can't reason, and therefore have no free will. Any deviation off path is explained by mechanical or terrain variances. Leave it to you two to mess it up...lol
Edited by shakey56 (10/16/10 03:19 PM)
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194167 - 10/16/10 06:57 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: shakey56]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
The variances are directly analogous of the terrain and the energy expended with navigating that terrain with its variances to the direction the little robot would go. Nearly random as the group of thinking people being biased so many different ways of viewing input because of variances in past thought and experiences to the direction they will take. You guys just want to see things your way, it is a fair analogy.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194168 - 10/16/10 07:10 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
|
Damn! You're dumb! lol It, like most of your thinking, is off base.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194169 - 10/16/10 07:43 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: shakey56]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
And human variances is explained by brain, memory and such variances. Boy you Evolutionary guys are dumb! LOL
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194198 - 10/17/10 02:19 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
starlight.2
Member
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 796
|
The variances are directly analogous of the terrain and the energy expended with navigating that terrain with its variances to the direction the little robot would go. Nearly random as the group of thinking people being biased so many different ways of viewing input because of variances in past thought and experiences to the direction they will take. You guys just want to see things your way, it is a fair analogy.
Paul
that doesn't even make sense grammatically.
_________________________
Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.
--Dalai Lama
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194200 - 10/17/10 03:50 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
|
The variances are directly analogous of the terrain and the energy expended with navigating that terrain with its variances to the direction the little robot would go. Nearly random as the group of thinking people being biased so many different ways of viewing input because of variances in past thought and experiences to the direction they will take. You guys just want to see things your way, it is a fair analogy.
Paul
No, it's a really stupid analogy and getting dumber...
Even if your robots are subject to variations based on terrain, they still have no free will to avoid undesirable paths or choose desireable ones... They still have to follow a path they have no choice in altering and are given no option to change... They are left at the mercy random happenstance and luck... No choosing, deciding, or reasoning... Your arguement is actually the antithesis of free will and promotes the belief in an uncontrolled and unavoidable fate...
We are just seeing what you are presenting to us and it makes no sense to your arguement...
You want an analogy, how about this one:
Religion is like a penis...
It's okay to have one, and it's okay if you don't... If you do, and you're proud of it, great... But, keep it to yourself...
If you decide to take it out in public and start waving it around, don't be surprised when people get offended... And definantly don't go and start shoving it down someone's throat unless they ask you to and you at least buy them dinner first...
Edited by inkblister (10/17/10 03:56 PM)
_________________________
I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194206 - 10/17/10 04:49 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: inkblister]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
Sorry, I meant Evilutionary. I think you guys are getting hardening of the brain, really limits your reasoning power. But I could care less or maybe even couldn't care less wheether you understand or not.:-)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194221 - 10/18/10 06:47 AM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ghoti]
|
corlorde
Member
Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 9246
|
And I see you as arrogantly disrespectful toward everyone who disagrees with you.
Seriously? You of all people pointing out others hypocrisy and disrespect? Will we get another polemic about how Paul is "dissing" your parents by posting his beliefs? You have no problem letting everyone know your opinion, and you are never challenged on it. I, for one, am about sick, of your blatant hypocrisy. A question: If one isn't a bible purist, why would they care if a bible fundamentalist speaks of hell and salvation?
_________________________
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194246 - 10/18/10 01:11 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: corlorde]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
The only posters who consistently condemn others for not conforming with their beliefs are fundamentalists like Paulwa and Ronnie. The only thing I've ever asked of them is to respect the fact that others have come to different spiritual decisions and to back off on their preaching and judging others.
Tolerance of religious diversity is written prominently into our constitution, and IMO it was done because the founding fathers had seen that it was a vital part of individual liberty. Christian fundamentalists have pretty openly advocated taking control of the US government so they can impose their religious philoshophy on the rest of us, and I see that as a danger that has to be opposed.
I've expressed my religious beliefs many times, but I've also said many times that I believe each person has to find a religious pathway that works for them as an indiviual and not to blindly follow anyone, me included.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194258 - 10/18/10 02:35 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ghoti]
|
Paul I
Member
Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 7913
|
Maybe I'm out of mainline thinking but all the variety of posts from different points of view don't really affect me or raise my dander. If it is something unique and personal to that person I do find it interesting. Paulwa's experience with gambling and the
ensuing liberation from it and Ghoti's actual encounter with
the Holy Spirit are both fascinating recollections. Taken collectively they simply reaffirm to me that the "true rules" of
Christianity are nowhere as obvious as men may think they are
and experiences any individual may have are not based on any set of beliefs that a given individual may have. To confine any
omnipotent being to a set of rules recorded by man is to degrade
that being's powers or ability to a human level. I'd just prefer that they be a little above that level.
The problem here as I see it is to grade each person's religious
philosophy and beliefs against another's. Rather they should be regarded as all being facets of the same experience.
_________________________
"...only the shadow knows"
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194260 - 10/18/10 02:50 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: corlorde]
|
shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
|
And I see you as arrogantly disrespectful toward everyone who disagrees with you. Seriously? You of all people pointing out others hypocrisy and disrespect? Will we get another polemic about how Paul is "dissing" your parents by posting his beliefs? You have no problem letting everyone know your opinion, and you are never challenged on it. I, for one, am about sick, of your blatant hypocrisy. A question: If one isn't a bible purist, why would they care if a bible fundamentalist speaks of hell and salvation?
Almost as far off base as Paulwa...lol Ghoti has never disrespected another belief system. At least not that I can recall. He also has never claimed his beliefs are the only way to God. He, unlike Paulwa and his ilk, approaches belief humbly with the knowledge that he may not have all the answers.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194262 - 10/18/10 04:53 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: shakey56]
|
ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
|
I bit my tongue twice ...the first time Ghoti used his parents as a tactic to get Paulwa to feel badly for what he posted. The second time, in this thread where he repeats it, I also kept quiet. Good to see another who might think *even a little bit like I do. I see this and I think: in bashing another's post, or degrading and slamming them with personal insult it's always been the rule around here that we don't bring family into the mix. So, Ghoti, you bring family into the mix. I know it is a tactic or else you would not have brought it up each time (were there other times too)when you were sick and tired of reading Paulwa.
And How aBout Ronnie there. I posted about my father being a Masonic Lodge member and he said masonry was a cult...robbie, I already knew from way long ago about His view...he stayed true to it, and slammed my post...so did many, saying my dad worked on the devil's side. I let everyone speak without the personal putdowns. Yas got your voice and I have mine. I didn't even need to say anything to know how I felt in my heart and though things didn't go as I had wanted to see...it Always reassures me of my *ass-sumptions about another when they are seen as having to resort to slamming on a personal level.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194265 - 10/18/10 05:10 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ævory]
|
ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
|
I think ronnie and paulwa deserve respect.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194266 - 10/18/10 05:12 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ævory]
|
shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
|
What a buncha bull Ronda! Ghoti didn't attack anybody or there parents. If Paul doesn't feel badly for condemning others, there is no hope for him, and anything anyone says won't faze him.
Everybody knows Ronnie is a fool, and his words carry no weight here. Which is why your post surprises me, I don't recall the thread you refer to. Can you post a link to it.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194272 - 10/18/10 06:57 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: shakey56]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
I am locked into the tenets of my doctrine of religion that I follow and the words of the creator this religion is formed around. I have to go with Jesus saying there is no way to God other than through Him and that is what I believe. However there is much we don't know, such as whether Jesus presents Himself to everyone passing out of this life with a chance to change their mind. I don't know whether it is true or not so therefore we cannot say whether a person is lost nor not. We may know how they lived their lives whether by God's rules or not and know that if they continued that same direction into death that they are probably lost and going to hell or headed for paradise.
According to the words of Jesus there are many religions that will not save a person so they may live with their creator for eternity. If that is the case and followed into death they are lost. I know people following those religions will be faunching and fuming at that statement but by Jesus own words it is true for my doctrine. There is no reason I need to apologise for the doctrine I follow. Does it make me sad? Sure it does and I may pass on the gospel I believe in but unless tghat person is receptive it will not make any difference, but I will have done my part and tried.
Thank you Ronda, but concerning other religions and beliefs, there is much about the passing over that we don't have a clue about and God says we are not to judge, that is His domain. As far as Ghoti's experience only he knows what he experienced and must make of it what he will as I do my experiences. I have not ever really testified or explained in detail my experiences in church. For one, people might view it as an ego trip or bragging, if they have not had similar experiences, for another reason there is no way of proving those experiences to anyone and they are not really valid except to myself. It is not an arguing matter and was pretty much for me alone. It does increase a persons faith dramatically though in their beliefs. Thus for Ghoti and myself and many others our experiences are pretty much unshakeable by those who doubt us.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#194273 - 10/18/10 07:07 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: shakey56]
|
ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
|
What a buncha bull Ronda! Ghoti didn't attack anybody or there parents. If Paul doesn't feel badly for condemning others, there is no hope for him, and anything anyone says won't faze him.
Everybody knows Ronnie is a fool, and his words carry no weight here. Which is why your post surprises me, I don't recall the thread you refer to. Can you post a link to it.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194276 - 10/18/10 07:45 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ronniechoate34]
|
flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
|
Everybody knows Ronnie is a fool, and his words carry no weight here. Which is why your post surprises me, I don't recall the thread you refer to. Can you post a link to it.
Okay, I'm defending Ronnie here, I say he's not a complete fool. Ronnie does not believe he will escape this life by being raptured.
I don't recall a Masonary thread either?
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194277 - 10/18/10 08:53 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: flicka]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
Ronnie don't belive in the rapture, Flicka? Hope you guys don't soil your undies when you fire off earth at the blink of an eye!!!!!:-)
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194370 - 10/19/10 07:43 AM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
|
I believe that there will be some people snatched from the earth to meet Jesus in the air. I don't believe that it will be a pre tribulation rapture.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194372 - 10/19/10 07:54 AM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ghoti]
|
ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
|
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[/quote]
Saturday night I was at my sis's house and had a martini (empty stomach) and heavy antibiotics (3rd day) so.......I was talking about as fast and free as my sis or bro-in-law were. We got onto the topic of my grand-niece (my sis's granddaughter) and she said that she was starting to get perturbed cus my bil's mother keeps saying that the child needs to get baptized cus God forbid something should happen to her, if she died, she would go to hell. The child is one + years old.
My sis (who was the one to convert to Catholicism, gladly, when she married) says she doesn't believe that. And then she says that she herself was baptized twice! I was Shocked. No way! I have no recollection of that, growing up together. Well, it happened when she was going to the Presbyterian church and I, for some reason, wasn't going to that church...maybe I was still going to the Methodist church. ANYWAY, the Catholic priest (or whoever) told my sister she had to get baptized in the Catholic church before she could be considered for Catholic conversion...that they did not accept the baptism from past. So she did, she got baptized, now twice!
I said, God, I can't believe this cus I've no memory of it! Well....do you think I am going to Hell cus I've never been baptized??? She nearly screamed NO! Do YOU? I said...NO.
Then she looks at my bro-in-law (7 yrs older than she) and asks him if he believed like his mother, that the grandbaby would go to Hell w/o being baptized. He said, "She'll go to limbo. Not Hell."...........well, that isn't what my sister thinks. BUT, anyWays....he also said, "You have your beliefs and I have mine." I did not ask my bil if he thought I'd go to Hell. It matters not a drop to me...not much of a drop as to what anyone thinks about me going to Hell. I know what I believe and am solidly comfortable and happy with my beliefs. So anyone can say whatever they want.
When the personal insults get posted, all it does is show one's own ugliness and inability to discuss anything. And I know of plenty of postings here where I was happy and upbeat about something that happened to me which I considered as happening because of the hand of God and I can tell you exActly who was around to put it down with personal insults. Don't try to muscle folk out cus it doesn't work. If you've a compulsion to do so then you should talk to the administrator(?) or owner of this board about becoming chief moderator, cus I don't see a chair sitting out here with anyone's name on it.
You cannot change peoples' beliefs. If it is that upsetting to you, to shakey, to dildo, to whoever! then they should find something that doesn't bug them ..and go do it cus This kind of hounding and constantly being on another's back is what keeps people from participating. More time spent posting your own views and less time posting about degrading insults on a personal level because of different viewpoints is needed. You seem to think that Paulwa (that type of poster...ronnie) causes people to leave or not participate but it is the back and forth slamming that does it. Plus, you just want to see them stoop to that level so you can say how they are.
What is the point of me posting this? Because it happened...I'm attesting to it...and I trust my own beliefs; if someone says or believes one thing and I don't (especially where my religious beliefs come in) I work at strengthening that belief I have -- partially through more reading of the Bible -- and partially, simply ..to let it be. Let the other voices be part of everything because we are all connected.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194385 - 10/19/10 11:05 AM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ævory]
|
Deo
Member
Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 127
|
Thanks for your post aevory. We are all connected. I post because I am reaching out to my brothers/sisters. You are all an extended family.
Deo
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194391 - 10/19/10 01:09 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Deo]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
Paulwa and I have been carrying on pretty much the same banter back and forth for many years now. I've learned a lot from him and consider him a friend, and I hope the feeling is mutual. Our discussions have at times been the only thing keeping this forum going, and if people find it boring or offensive you can always just go elsewhere.
The ONLY thing I've ever asked from him and others is that we all show respect for the beliefs of others and not go around putting other people down for not conforming. I try to follow that myself and have always attempted to be respectful toward others, although preaching and excessive proselytyzing gets me riled at times.
Diversity of opinions is a good thing, and we can all learn from each other by keeping conversations calm and civil. I think you'll find that's a hallmark of all successful boards where religious matters are discussed, even those dedicated solely to Christians.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194394 - 10/19/10 01:21 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ghoti]
|
shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
|
I've never said anybody's belief system is wrong. I have challenged aspects of those systems that do not fit with what we know today. I will continue to do this. When ppl refuse to accept proven facts, and accept dogma that is disproved by those facts, they are either willfully ignorant or just plain stupid. Paul and Ronnie make it a habit of saying their way is the only way and dising all other belief systems.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194396 - 10/19/10 01:29 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: shakey56]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
It is not our way Shakey, it is Jesus, the son of God's way.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194399 - 10/19/10 01:44 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
And that works for you, Paulwa, and I respect that and wouldn't want you to change. I happen to disagree, but do not want or expect others to follow my lead.
IMO Whatever spiritual pathway a person finds that brings them serenity and humility is a good thing, and if it brings anger and arrogance instead it's a bad thing.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194404 - 10/19/10 02:12 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ghoti]
|
shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
|
Well Paul, you are the one posting here not Jesus. I suspect Jesus would be much more tolerant.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194413 - 10/19/10 03:25 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: shakey56]
|
ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
|
Well Paul, you are the one posting here not Jesus. I suspect Jesus would be much more tolerant.
How does one be tolerant when no one listens or hears? If you don't hear then you don't listen. If you don't listen then you have nothing of which to test your tolerance on.
Shakey, you think Jesus is a joke....a nonexistent silly bunch of whOee. You have told us that over and again. You really want to base your statement of what you suspect on a joke? Do you joke for fun or to make a point? What point are you making based upon your joke? It IS your joke. You defined it. ...maybe ghoti's joke, I don't know...maybe anothers' joke, could be....but all the jokes in the world can't make what you suspect true, can it?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194417 - 10/19/10 03:46 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ævory]
|
shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
|
I never said Jesus was a joke. I have repeatedly said it is possible that Jesus or any other supposed God is not a God, or he or they could be. Nobody knows for sure. What is a joke is anybody who says they do know.
I strongly suspect there is no God other than the ones man has invnted, but I, just like everybody else, don't know for sure.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194436 - 10/19/10 04:45 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: shakey56]
|
ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
|
Well, you vacilate between your strength of belief about it from time to time, also, depending on the one you quote or dis or..
So I apologize. But I think I should copy/paste it to my Word processor for future occasions. ahh...too much trouble. It WAS?IS a good line of attack/debate...err whatever it is we do here.
*niteALL...specially Corey. ha! finally...someone stepped up and spoke what they think besides the bunch of us here. and as usual, I pretty much like what Corey has to say. Now don't take that out on him. I will be gone for a while.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194471 - 10/19/10 06:03 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ævory]
|
flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
|
I will be gone for a while.
If you go right now, and Greg does manage to get EMMA to ban his IP, I'll be forced to insinuate that you & Greg are the same poster and Paulwa will have another reason to claim I'm the devil's playmate.
Please don't be that cruel to me.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194475 - 10/19/10 06:46 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: flicka]
|
ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
|
I will be gone for a while. If you go right now, and Greg does manage to get EMMA to ban his IP, I'll be forced to insinuate that you & Greg are the same poster and Paulwa will have another reason to claim I'm the devil's playmate. Please don't be that cruel to me.
I don't want to be cruel. New threads.
We need new threads or I won't be coming around.
Too many who post once in a blue moon and they say how sucky it is here...so simple: begin your own thread...something you want to talk about. It's easy. Why come to say "It is dead here, sure sucks."
Nah...Flicka ---love you. Others will have to have a go at trying here...trying Something, other than what we've had lately. And maybe that's what it takes, too, is me leaving. I know many who don't care to see my name on board anymore than another who is hated here...so, ..
unbelievable, the hate. and I don't like using the word hate but it's something pretty crappy. maybe it's pain. i've had tons of pain. so what
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#194504 - 10/19/10 08:06 PM
Re: Hitchens Brothers Agree To Disagree Over God
[Re: ævory]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
Ronda hope you feel much better. Get lots of rest.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
