#193988 - 10/13/10 09:57 AM
A valid question
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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borrowed from an NM poster
"Aprox 26,000 children will die of starvation today. Why should god answer YOUR prayers?"
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#193990 - 10/13/10 10:03 AM
Re: A valid question
[Re: Greg]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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I pray for others. It increases my chances of getting a second look from God.
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#194001 - 10/13/10 12:05 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: ævory]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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There will be thousands dying from all sorts of things because of the randomness of cause and effect in our existance. Those who revere and serve God has His hand of protection over them till their time to depart comes. Others beat a hasty retreat to hades while those living for Jesus as their saviour go in a flash to paradise to await the rapture and resurrection day. Paul
Edited by Paulwa_dup1 (10/13/10 12:05 PM)
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#194005 - 10/13/10 12:17 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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Those who revere and serve God has His hand of protection over them till their time to depart comes. Others beat a hasty retreat to hades while those living for Jesus as their saviour go in a flash to paradise to await the rapture and resurrection day. Paul
Say you this of the children? How dare you presume to know the "truth".
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#194007 - 10/13/10 12:21 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: Greg]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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The children who die before the age of accountability ( I believe it varies from person to person)will go to paradise immediately.The others will go to hades. The bible is Gods word and pretty much explains these things. I don't presume anything, just state what the bible has taught me. It is available to all who care to read and study it Greg! Paul
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#194009 - 10/13/10 01:46 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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inkblister
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus
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#194022 - 10/13/10 04:15 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: inkblister]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Because He is creator of all and runs this existence to His own rules. Fight against Him as you will, you don't stand a chance without Him. You are the ink in His pen! Paul
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#194029 - 10/13/10 04:28 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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Fight against Him as you will, you don't stand a chance without Him.
there you go again
your following a moral life by strictly adhering to religous christain doctrine is your way
but you have no right, just as orthodox muslims have no right to say it is the only way
and I am betting my salvation "God" agrees with me
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#194031 - 10/13/10 04:34 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: Greg]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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If your "salvation god" agrees with you I am betting you will wind up with an upset stomach in the end, Greg.:-)
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#194034 - 10/13/10 05:20 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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Because He is creator of all and runs this existence to His own rules. Fight against Him as you will, you don't stand a chance without Him. You are the ink in His pen! Paul
So, just because... weak... so no "real" answer huh?...
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#194036 - 10/13/10 06:08 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: inkblister]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Don't like the truth huh, inkyblister? ;-)
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#194048 - 10/13/10 09:22 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Paulwa, you don't know the real truth any more than anyone else, and I'm getting really tired of your constant pretense that you do. If you're wrong about faith being the sole criteria for judgement in the afterlife then YOU'RE the one due for a very nasty surprise.
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#194051 - 10/14/10 01:38 AM
Re: A valid question
[Re: ghoti]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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I love the truth Paulwa... But what you percieve as truth is nothing more than your opinion to me and everyone else, just as is my truth and are other's...
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#194055 - 10/14/10 12:54 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: inkblister]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Lighten up guys! Of course you are technically right...but I don't think your search is really giving you confidence that you are really on the right track..you are still searching swhat you perceive as facts to build your foundation of faith in your future. Christianity (the individual type..not church) on the other hand has all the words laying out the future of christians in detail. It has been backed by billions of believers all weith various testimonies of their interactions with the creator that really firms up faith and beliefs for each individual fregardless of what others do. I have witnessed God's mercy and gravce and power many times that really cannot be explained in any other way. You guys are still prospecting while I have struck the motherlode of gold..at least in my opinion. But I am at total peace with my future and feel like I am being lead positively by God's spirit which Jesus promised to all believers upon repentance. I am not being facetious or know it all about this but I am convinced beyond certainty. I have nothing that is not available to anyone who repents of tgheir sins and by faith begins searching God's word for the truth. God's intentions are to save all who will come to Him openly and without pretention. I am sorry if my faith in what God has revealed to me appears bigoted and self centered and self serving. It is just I have the proof and the gold on me to my satisfaction, but to you who do not see the word as I do think I am loaded with nothing but fools gold. The bible if I read it rightly says that is normal in this world of sin and doubt but that I shoulkdn't let that affect me or my testimony of Jesus who died for me and all in the world who will accept Him. Those who don't must chance the truths they have extracted and must place their eternal future on their beliefs or if atheist their total death and no future. Sorry but their is too much proof to me that God is true and His word is true and things are right on schedule for the rising of His kingdom on this earth and the complet anhialation of satan and sin in this world and the freeing of mankind to live with a Holy God for eternity. Coming very soon to a world we all know and love. I'll try not to appear as sure of things in the future but it is difficult because I see the words of the one who created all things and realize He is interested in me and what I do and blesses me daily for my faith in Him. And in a way it is so easy to make that commitment for the greatest prize in eternity. Peace Paul
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#194057 - 10/14/10 01:26 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Just because a whole bunch of people believe something it's no proof that it's true. For many thousands of years nearly everyone believed the earth was flat and this belief was even part of the official dogma of the Christian church, and yet the earth remained spherical in spite of it. It took science, not belief, to reveal the truth.
Your beliefs may be sufficient proof to you, but they are of no consequence to others whatsoever.
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#194059 - 10/14/10 01:29 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I believe that attitude is mentioned in the bible and is just the way things are in this life. Peace, Ghoti. Paul
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#194067 - 10/14/10 04:49 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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I find my greatest connection to the creator by studying and experiencing the world and universe he made. IMO that's far better for me than relying on words from an ancient book that CLAIMS to have a message from him.
People can easily lie or exaggerate in a book, but the real truth is always found in nature.
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#194389 - 10/19/10 12:31 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: ghoti]
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ævory
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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People can easily lie or exaggerate in a book, but the real truth is always found in nature.
Why does man try to change nature then? The apricot X(cross) peach..the new and improved this or that...the cloning...one day, a man 3000 years from today will look at nature and go, humph...what the heck is this? we do now. Well, it will be recorded, right...they can just look way back to now and see how a plant really did grow from the ground. But wait, was it a lie? Who doctored the books? Can I believe that? I mean, I don't see any of those anymore. Where did the lie start?
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#194397 - 10/19/10 01:34 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: ævory]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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People have been trying to improve nature ever since the beginning of time. It's why we wear clothes and live in houses and use heating systems and travel around in cars. In many ways our drive to make life more comfortable by altering nature is what separates us from animals.
I worry about all the hybrid and genetically-engineered foods that we produce these days, but there are people who try to stick to more natural ways of farming. We do a lot of our shopping at natural food stores for that very reason.
IMO things like cloning should be done cautiously and under strict regulations, but the trend seems to be to reduce regulation of industry and let them do whatever is most profitable. That whole trend also worries me, since the most profitable approach may not be healthy for us in the long run.
My personal belief is that studying nature is an excellent way to commune with the creator. The more deeply we reach into unveiling the infitie complexity of the universe the more it strengthens my belief that some force far greater than us is behind it all.
If someone has found a different pathway that brings them closer to the creator, more power to them, but please don't come here and condemn my approach. I KNOW I'm on the correct pathway for me and all the preaching in the world won't change that.
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#194533 - 10/20/10 04:02 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: ghoti]
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ævory
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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People have been trying to improve nature ever since the beginning of time. It's why we wear clothes and live in houses and use heating systems and travel around in cars. In many ways our drive to make life more comfortable by altering nature is what separates us from animals. _____________________________________________________________________________________
avory says: I say change and you say improve. My point was not to say what drives man to alter nature or that doing so seperates us from animals. No, animals don't read the Bible and I don't know what their beliefs are.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
You said: I worry about all the hybrid and genetically-engineered foods that we produce these days, but there are people who try to stick to more natural ways of farming. We do a lot of our shopping at natural food stores for that very reason.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I say : The point of my post was not to examine the differences in farming techniques. I lived in the country growing up, spent over-nights on farms with my farm friends, and worked the yard, garden and woods of my own family's property while growing up. We have tons of different grocery stores where I live now. The point of my post was not to talk about the virtues of being discriminatory as it pertains to food shopping.
======================================================
You said: IMO things like cloning should be done cautiously and under strict regulations, but the trend seems to be to reduce regulation of industry and let them do whatever is most profitable. That whole trend also worries me, since the most profitable approach may not be healthy for us in the long run.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
I say: I wasn't expecting my example of cloning ( in my post ) to bring on a discussion about deregulation or trendsetting, profits vs losses w/in the industry, or what is healthy or not.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
You said: My personal belief is that studying nature is an excellent way to commune with the creator. The more deeply we reach into unveiling the infitie complexity of the universe the more it strengthens my belief that some force far greater than us is behind it all.
*******************************************************************************************
I ask you: Will you ever get to the point of saturation? ----> Like, enough is enough, ...you believe about as strongly as you possibly can and one more nature trip to wherever just isn't going to make you any more of a believer than you are now? Me neither, and I agree with the above (what you said), plus, I believe in the Bible. I'm not a purist but I don't think in terms of anything being lies or exaggerations that are in the Bible, either. If I were a purist I suppose that type of description would offend me a lot. It somewhat does anyway,......do you think it can't be disputed, what you say there? Is that why you haven't touched upon what I wrote or is there another reason?
_________________________________________________________________________________________
You said: If someone has found a different pathway that brings them closer to the creator, more power to them, but please don't come here and condemn my approach. I KNOW I'm on the correct pathway for me and all the preaching in the world won't change that.
I ask you: Why did you post that to me? I've read this posting many times before you addressed it to my own posting. _____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you know what I wrote? It was this:
Why does man try to change nature then? The apricot X(cross) peach..the new and improved this or that...the cloning...one day, a man 3000 years from today will look at nature and go, humph...what the heck is this? we do now. Well, it will be recorded, right...they can just look way back to now and see how a plant really did grow from the ground. But wait, was it a lie? Who doctored the books? Can I believe that? I mean, I don't see any of those anymore. Where did the lie start?
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Ghoti, I really worked at keeping it short because of those who don't like to read a lot of me. But think...a bazillion years from now, there could be cloned sheep on the hill and due to man destroying the environment (Go Green!) we could have man-made trees and other things growing out of the ground. By that time, everyone has gradually been lead to believe that they are trees like any other trees that ever came along. The things we humans believe! Heck, online gamers toDay get fooled all the time by years of playing against female avatars thinking they got female buddies only to find out that they were all males behind those computers. And so many things now look real as life! You and I really don't know how things are going to be a bazillion years from now but I can guarantee there will be those who are going to need some kind of belief in their world. And yes, the Bible has been written by some men who you wonder just how accurate they were when they had their part in the Bible. I believe that everything in the Bible is there because God and man had the hand of God on It. If you believe in God and the Bible...well, you just don't believe that it is full of lies and exaggerations...or that it is just a book.
Can you try answering my post because this has happened several times with me and I wonder if you read it or someone else reads it and sends you the parts that don't offend you (or they think won't offend you) and then you trivialize anything another may have written by not touching upon what they wanted you to listen to and either debate or ...it's gotten much like how I (the moniker/poster, I) and how autonomic he sounded online....I can't tell anything except that you didn't respond to my posting with any rebuttal.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Here is what you wrote that I responded to:
People can easily lie or exaggerate in a book, but the real truth is always found in nature. _______________________________________________________________________________________
Again, here is what I responded with:
Why does man try to change nature then? The apricot X(cross) peach..the new and improved this or that...the cloning...one day, a man 3000 years from today will look at nature and go, humph...what the heck is this? we do now. Well, it will be recorded, right...they can just look way back to now and see how a plant really did grow from the ground. But wait, was it a lie? Who doctored the books? Can I believe that? I mean, I don't see any of those anymore. Where did the lie start?
Edited by ævory (10/20/10 04:08 PM)
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#194556 - 10/20/10 10:40 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: ævory]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Ronda, the rambling and roundabout way you write makes it very difficult to ever see what your main point is. If your point is that species that now exist will be replaced by new ones in the future, then I agree.
If you examine the fossil record, over 99.9% of all species that EVER existed have disappeared and replaced by others. It's just the way nature works.
Just because nature is changing doesn't mean that it lies. Nature reveals ultimate truth to us if we study it, and humans have been able to use that information to alter and improve our conditions. How does that constitute lying?
Yes, humans are now directing and accelerating this process by genetic engineering, selective breeding, and cloning. New species are being created and mistakes are going to be made, and that's why I think this should be carefully overseen and controlled, but that isn't happening. Do you disagree with this?
The profit motive is a powerful method for driving innovation, but IMO doesn't always result in choices that are good for us long-term.
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#194598 - 10/22/10 05:50 AM
Re: A valid question
[Re: ghoti]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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Ronda, the rambling and roundabout way you write makes it very difficult to ever see what your main point is. If your point is that species that now exist will be replaced by new ones in the future, then I agree.
No, I've tried many times to change my writing style and it is difficult. Many have tried and decided not to bother with my posts. Then there were the putdowns because of frustration in reading them. You decide. Often, people like robbie, have seen and mentioned the double message w/in. Depends on what I want put across. My mind, even in real life, thinks of many things at one time while I'm receiving a message from another. I read books and I don't read one at a time...more like 3 or 4..one time I had 5 books going. People say, "How do you do that? I could n't remember one story-line from another." For me it is easy. I gotta repeat to the board that once upon a time here....year 2001....there was a gal who came to the board and posted pretty long posts and they were a mess to read through but I tried really hard to get where she was coming from and I Always tried..to respond. What I read from others was what a freakazoid she was. She left...then came back sporadically to leave even longer postings..never to return what anyone said there. Why? Probably because the people here were not nice.
If you cannot relate to what I wrote then we probably are through w/ this topic..you and I. Your third sentence says what you know what I was getting at...that nature being altered to the point of completely human-manufactured 'whatever' (trees, plants, fruit, animal) a gazillion years from now folk may look at it and tell the story of how THIS tree God made! to their children...humph, sounds pretty strange to think about such a bizarre scenario...BUT, the one thing that folk can hold onto and believe in is God and God's hand in and on the Bible. You might say that your line of usual posting on NM is no different than another's. You putdown religion and you (to my viewpoint) blasphemize the Lord when you reiterate all the time how Jesus was just a man.....the Bible was just a book. Man, if you cannot see that we All here have our own (disturbing opinions to other's point of view) then you are lost for sure.
True nature cannot be lies if you say you find yourself closer to God when you are in the woods (let's say). Altered nature...a zillion years from now, that's not where one will find themselves communing with God. Or, maybe I'm wrong...heck, people say they find Jesus in their morning pancakes. What do I know! What do you know, ghoti?
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#194599 - 10/22/10 05:52 AM
Re: A valid question
[Re: ævory]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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To say it's hard to see Ever what my point is, gives me reason to believe you. You don't see me. I can accept that...just letting you know. Like so many, you don't want to see, hear, listen.
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#194600 - 10/22/10 11:01 AM
Re: A valid question
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Deo
Member
Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 127
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I have witnessed God's mercy and gravce and power many times that really cannot be explained in any other way. Hi Paul, could you share some of those experiences that cannot be explained in any other way. Deo
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#194607 - 10/22/10 12:44 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: Deo]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Ronda, I said long ago that many people find your posts difficult because your writing style is "stream of consciousness" while mine is more logical. It makes it easy for you and I to misunderstand each other and IMO that's where much of our disagreements come from.
I don't disrepect anyone's faith or beliefs, but when someone (mainly fundamentalists) starts telling us that their way is the ONLY way and condemning others, then I fight back. As I'm sure everybody knows, it's my firm belief that we must each find our own individual spiritual pathway.
Even among Christians, there is a wide diversity of opinion about whether parts of the Bible should be taken as allegory or literally. In case you haven't noticed, much of the opposition to the fundamentalists actually comes from other Christian believers who post here.
Each person's beliefs are their own business and IMO deserve to be treated with respect when they're expressed. We obviously can't all be right and we'll each find out the truth soon enough.
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#194610 - 10/22/10 03:06 PM
Re: A valid question
[Re: ghoti]
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Paul I
Member
Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 7913
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I never pay any attention to whom a post is addressed. I just pick the first reply box and write. Fox example, the above response referenced to Deo is to Rhonda, obviously. Maybe there is a difference between "reply" and "quick reply".
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#194756 - 10/28/10 06:10 AM
Re: A valid question
[Re: ghoti]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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Ronda, I said long ago that many people find your posts difficult because your writing style is "stream of consciousness" while mine is more logical. It makes it easy for you and I to misunderstand each other and IMO that's where much of our disagreements come from.
many people find...while your own......<>......does not explain why you dance round my posting. MANY people's findings about me don't make you post the way you do, do they?
So, Ghoti, stream of conscienceness thinking & writing is out of the realm of all logically possible worlds, in your world?
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#194765 - 10/28/10 10:25 AM
Re: A valid question
[Re: ævory]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Ronda, I honestly try to read your posts and respond to what I think are the main points. Then you respond back and more often than not are angry because I apparently missed the point you were actually making. IMO we're often just talking circles around each other.
Before I post anything I try to sort out exactly what points I want to make, while you seem to drift around more randomly. IMO we just have radically different ways of writing and perhaps of thinking.
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