#190966 - 08/08/10 08:14 PM
Another approach to religion.
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Paul I
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Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 7913
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ارسي | عربي
The Oneness of Religion
The principle of the unity of religion is at the center of Bahá'í teachings. Bahá'u'lláh states that humanity is engaged in a collective growth process quite similar to the growth process of an individual: just as a person begins life as a helpless infant and attains maturity in successive stages, so humankind began its collective social life in a primitive state, gradually attaining maturity. In the case of the individual, it is clear that his or her development takes place as a result of the education he or she receives from parents, teachers, and society in general. But what is the motive force in humankind's collective evolution?
The answer the Bahá'í Faith provides to this question is "revealed religion." In one of His major works, the Kitab-i-Iqan (the Book of Certitude), Bahá'u'lláh explained that God, the Creator, has intervened and will continue to intervene in human history by means of chosen Messengers. These Messengers, Whom Bahá'u'lláh called "Manifestations of God ," are principally the Founders of the major revealed religions, such as Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, and so forth. It is the spirit released by the coming of these Manifestations, together with the influence of Their teachings and the social systems established by Their laws and precepts, that enable humankind to progress in its collective evolution. Simply put: the Manifestations of God are the chief educators of humanity. With regard to the various religious systems that have appeared in human history, Bahá'u'lláh has said:
These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.2
Thus the principle of the unity of religion means that all of the great religious Founders--the Manifestations--have come from God, and that all of the religious systems established by Them are part of a single divine plan directed by God.
In reality, there is only one religion, the religion of God. This one religion is continually evolving, and each particular religious system represents a stage in the evolution of the whole. The Bahá'í Faith represents the current stage in the evolution of religion. To emphasize the idea that all of the teachings and actions of the Manifestation are directed by God and do not originate from natural, human sources, Bahá'u'lláh used the term "revelation" to describe the phenomenon that occurs each time a Manifestation appears. In particular, the writings of the Manifestation represent the infallible Word of God. Because these writings remain long after the earthly life of the Manifestation is finished, they constitute an especially important part of the phenomenon of revelation. So much is this so, that the term "revelation" is sometimes used in a restricted sense to refer to the writings and words of the Manifestation.
Religious history is seen as a succession of revelations from God and the term "progressive revelation" is used to describe this process. Thus, according to Bahá'ís, progressive revelation is the motive force of human progress, and the Manifestation Bahá'u'lláh is the most recent instance of revelation.
Bahá'u'lláh taught that the time interval between two Manifestations may be about one thousand years. He also taught that the process of revelation will not stop with His revelation and that another Manifestation will come after Him, though not before the expiration of one thousand years from Bahá'u'lláh's coming. According to the Bahá'í writings, the process of revelation will continue indefinitely into the future and humankind will see the coming of a great many more Manifestations.
To put the Bahá'í concept of religion more clearly in focus, let us compare it with some other ways in which religion has been regarded. On one hand is the view that the various religious systems result from human striving after truth. In this conception, the Founders of the great religions do not reveal God to us, but are rather philosophers or thinkers, human beings who may have progressed farther than others in the discovery of truth. This notion excludes the idea of a basic unity of religion since the various religious systems are seen as representing different opinions and beliefs arrived at by fallible human beings rather than infallible revelations of truth from a single source.
Many orthodox adherents of various religious traditions, on the other hand, argue that the Prophet or Founder of their particular tradition represents a true revelation of God to humanity, but that the other religious Founders are false prophets, or at least essentially inferior to the Founder of the tradition in question. For example, many Jews believe that Moses was a true Messenger of God, but that Jesus was not. Similarly, many Christians believe in Jesus' revelation, but consider that Muhammad was a false prophet, and hold that Moses was inferior in status to Christ.
The Bahá'í principle of the oneness of religion differs fundamentally from both of these traditional concepts. Bahá'u'lláh attributed the differences in some teachings of the great religions not to any human fallibility of the Founders, but rather to the different requirements of the ages in which the revelations occurred. Moreover, Bahá'ís consider that no one of the Founders is superior to another. Shoghi Effendi has summarized this view in the following words:
The fundamental principle enunciated by Bahá'u'lláh, the followers of His Faith firmly believe, is that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is a continuous and progressive process, that all the great religions of the world are divine in origin, that their basic principles are in complete harmony, that their aims and purposes are one and the same, that their teachings are but facets of one truth, that their functions are complementary, that they differ only in the nonessential aspects of their doctrines, and that their missions represent successive stages in the spiritual evolution of human society.
The Unity of Religion and Science
A major source of conflict and disunity in the world today is the widespread opinion that there is some basic opposition between science and religion, that scientific truth contradicts religion on some points, and that one must choose between being a religious person, a believer in God, or a scientist, a follower of reason.1
The Bahá'í teachings stress the fundamental harmony of science and religion. This view derives from the belief that truth (or reality) is one. For if truth is indeed one, it is not possible for something to be scientifically false and religiously true. 'Abdu'l-Bahá expressed forcefully this idea in the following passage:
If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science, they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible, and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation.2
Bahá'u'lláh affirmed that man's intelligence and reasoning powers are a gift from God: "This gift giveth man the power to discern the truth in all things, leadeth him to that which is right, and helpeth him to discover the secrets of creation."3 Science results from our systematic use of these God-given powers. The truths of science are thus discovered truths. The truths of prophetic religion are revealed truths, i.e., truths which God has shown to us without our having to discover them for ourselves. Bahá'ís consider that it is the same unique God who is both the Author of revelation and the Creator of the reality which science investigates, and hence there can be no contradiction between the two.
Contradictions between science and traditional religious beliefs are attributed to human fallibility and arrogance. Over the centuries, distortions have gradually infiltrated the doctrines of many religious systems and diluted the pure teachings originally given by the Manifestation who was their Founder. With time these distortions become increasingly difficult to distinguish from the original message. Similarly, unsupported speculations of various schools of scientific thought have at times become more popular and influential than the results of rigorous scientific research, and have further blurred the picture.
'Abdu'l-Bahá affirmed that religion and science are, in fact, complementary:
Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism.4
In another passage from the same work, He affirmed that the result of the practice of the unity of science and religion will be a strengthening of religion rather than its weakening as is feared by many religious apologists:
When religion, shorn of its superstitions, traditions, and unintelligent dogmas, shows its conformity with science, then will there be a great unifying, cleansing force in the world which will sweep before it all wars, disagreements, discords and struggles--and then will mankind be united in the power of the Love of God.
Life, Death, and the Soul RELATED DOCUMENTS
The Soul
The Human Soul
Heaven and hell: a Bahá'í view of life after death
According to Bahá'í teachings human nature is fundamentally spiritual. Although human beings exist on earth in physical bodies, the essential identity of each person is defined by an invisible, rational, and everlasting soul .
The soul animates the body and distinguishes human beings from the animals. It grows and develops only through the individual's relationship with God, as mediated by His Messengers. The relationship is fostered through prayer, knowledge of the scriptures revealed by these Teachers, love for God, moral self-discipline, and service to humanity. This process is what gives meaning to life.
Cultivation of life's spiritual side has several benefits. First, the individual increasingly develops those innate qualities that lie at the foundation of human happiness and social progress. Such qualities include faith, courage, love, compassion, trustworthiness and humility. As these qualities are increasingly manifest, society as a whole advances.
Another effect of spiritual development is alignment with God's will. This growing closer to God prepares the individual for the afterlife . The soul lives on after the body's death, embarking on a spiritual journey towards God through many "worlds" or planes of existence. Progress on this journey, in traditional terms, is likened to "heaven." If the soul fails to develop, one remains distant from God. This condition of remoteness from God can in some sense be understood as "hell." Thus, heaven and hell are regarded not as literal places but descriptions of one's spiritual progress toward the light of God.
Edited by Paul I (08/08/10 08:23 PM)
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"...only the shadow knows"
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#190967 - 08/08/10 08:32 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paul I]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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taint the bible. taint right 
have known a couple of followers of this path, and they some of the most secure ppl i've ever met.
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#190970 - 08/08/10 10:16 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: shakey56]
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ghoti
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Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Paul I, I just was scolding Ronda for this same thing so I've got to do the same to you. Posting the entire text of an article is considered a copyright violation. We're supposed to just post quotes for the purpose of giving a critique or review.
Sorry, but fair is fair.
ETA: If the above wasn't quoted from an article but was your own writing, then I apologize for being presumptuous.
Edited by ghoti (08/08/10 10:23 PM)
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#190971 - 08/08/10 10:20 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: ghoti]
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ghoti
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Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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In comment about the article, I know several people in this area who are members of a Baha'i congregation. I was invited to attend and was tempted since I agree with a lot of their tenets but couldn't accept their full dogma.
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#190972 - 08/09/10 08:00 AM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: ghoti]
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ronniechoate34
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Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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Bah-humbug! Those guys talk fancy but they don't accept Christianity. And they would like to see it either done away with or to have all Christians assimilated to their beliefs. I wonder if they'd ever advocate killing in order to bring about the "peace" and "unity" they seek? I don't doubt it. A true believer in the Word of God can stir up some pretty powerful emotions in the devil and his ilk.
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#190973 - 08/09/10 08:24 AM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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shakey56
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Where do you get this nonsense, Ronnie? BTW the majority of ppl in the world don't accept Christianity, and the majority of us don't want to see it done away with or assimilated. We are a bit nervous abt your intentions toward us tho
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#190975 - 08/09/10 10:55 AM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: shakey56]
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Paul I
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Posts: 7913
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Steve these are not articles. They were copied from the
Baha'i website at http://www.bahai.org/. They are available to all.
However, you are correct in that their terms of use state that the website they came from must be acknowleged. Hopefully this post will suffice and my apologies to the Baha'i administration.
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"...only the shadow knows"
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#190976 - 08/09/10 11:01 AM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paul I]
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Paul I
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Posts: 7913
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I, also, find some problems with some of their dogma. Although most of their teachings are refreshing I'm not certain about the "Messenger of God" concept.
Ronnie, the exact opposite of what you stated regarding they're not being Christian believers is made clear. They do not believe in
achieving their ends with violence. In fact five of the believers were sentenced to 20 yrs each in Iran which is not only where the religion began but where it is also outlawed along with Egypt and I believe Iraq.
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#190977 - 08/09/10 11:27 AM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paul I]
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ronniechoate34
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The Baha'i Scriptures affirm that Jesus is one of a series of Manifestations of God that includes Moses, the Buddha, Muhammad -- and, today, Baha'u'llah-- through Whom, from age to age, God has progressively revealed His Will and Purpose for humanity. All the Manifestations of God are like perfect Mirrors for the Spirit of God to come into the world.
http://www.bahai.us/Jesus-Christ
But what if I don't believe that? Could I still join the Ba'hai religion if I wanted to?
Edited by ronniechoate34 (08/09/10 11:28 AM)
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#190981 - 08/09/10 12:17 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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Paul I
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I guess that's a "depends" question. If you told them what you just posted they might encourage you to participate as you wished to, take a class, etc. If you didn't only you (plus a few hundred posters) would know.
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#190990 - 08/09/10 12:59 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paul I]
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Deo
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 127
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Manifestations of god in Hinduism are called Avatars. Ha! thought that was invented in Hollywood. Hinduism is a non proselytizing religion. I never had the inclination to convince people to convert or join my religion when I considered myself Hindu. I am always amuzed by this tendency of followers of Abrahamic religions.
Deo
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#190997 - 08/09/10 02:55 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Deo]
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ronniechoate34
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Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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I wonder how they like it when they are told that they are going to hell for their beliefs. That's a Christian belief you know. I spose' they'd never begrudge me for it or try to change my beliefs since they embrace Jesus and His teachings. I'll imagine that I would be a delight to have in their court rooms and the apple of Baha'u'llah's eye. 
They're a deceived bunch of folks who need prayer.
Edited by ronniechoate34 (08/09/10 02:55 PM)
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#190999 - 08/09/10 03:21 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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shakey56
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As are you, Ronnie
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#191000 - 08/09/10 03:24 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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ghoti
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Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Ronnie, they would probably feel sorry for you for embracing such an extrremist position and try to convince you to be more tolerant of other beliefs. Nobody really knows the full truth, ya know, and we're all just grasping at straws.
You accept the Bible as the word of God, and that's fine as long as you can see that others have differing views. Intolerance between religious groups has been a major cause of strife and wars over time and perpetuating it just continues the same old cycle.
Believe as you like, but please don't demand that everyone else follow your lead.
Edited by ghoti (08/09/10 03:25 PM)
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#191001 - 08/09/10 03:32 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paul I]
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ghoti
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Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Steve these are not articles. They were copied from the Baha'i website at http://www.bahai.org/. They are available to all. However, you are correct in that their terms of use state that the website they came from must be acknowleged. Hopefully this post will suffice and my apologies to the Baha'i administration.
Cool, Paul I, and I apologize. I'm sure the Baha'i organization would consider this public domain information and likely encourage its distribution.
Ronda has been hitting us with scads of entire articles that she cuts and pastes from websites with little or no commentary on her part, and I've been pointing out to her that she's violating internet copyright laws. In the interest of fairness to her, I felt I had to comment on y9our post.
Edited by ghoti (08/09/10 03:34 PM)
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#191004 - 08/09/10 03:48 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Yes I could probably post the entire bible on here and I doubt God would feel robbed or offended.:-)
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#191006 - 08/09/10 03:58 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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flicka
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I wonder how they like it when they are told that they are going to hell for their beliefs.
It saddens me that some Christians carry this around as a trump card.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#191007 - 08/09/10 04:16 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
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Yes I could probably post the entire bible on here and I doubt God would feel robbed or offended.:-)
But we would all be bored to hell
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#191009 - 08/09/10 06:01 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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starlight.2
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Posts: 793
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Yes I could probably post the entire bible on here and I doubt God would feel robbed or offended.:-)
actually, i don't think the bible IS copyrighted (realistically, who'd hold the rights?) - so there probably wouldn't be any legal prohibition against that. in fact, you probably could find the entire text on some website or other.
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Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.
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#191010 - 08/09/10 06:22 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: starlight.2]
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ronniechoate34
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Posts: 540
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The Bible isn't copyrighted but the niv is. You need permission to post it all here.
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#191011 - 08/09/10 06:43 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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flicka
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The only version of the Bible that isn't under copyright is the King James Version.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#191013 - 08/09/10 08:44 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: flicka]
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shakey56
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So God holds copyrights? Gawddamn!
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#191014 - 08/09/10 09:01 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: flicka]
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ghoti
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The internet copyright law says anything written on the internet after April 1, 1989, is AUTOMATICALLY considered coprighted with no need for the author to apply or do anything to get it. The only exceptions are if the author willingly gives the material public domain status. In that case, anyone is free to copy, reproduce, or repost that information without having to get permission from the author.
Otherwise, EVERYTHING posted on the internet is automatically given copyrighted status. That means you can't just copy and paste stuff willy-nilly without the potential of getting in trouble.
What you are allowed to do is post brief quotes from articles or posts written by others for the purpose of critique or review, but you still have to give a link to the original.
This gets violated all the time and there have been a lot of examples of people getting successfully sued over it. A little obscure website like NM isn't likely to draw enough attention to cause a lawsuit, but it could happen.
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
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#191016 - 08/09/10 09:15 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Loc: Washington
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Anything other than the KJV is to be quesgtioned for accuracy and even the old KJV may have typographical errors.
Paul
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#191017 - 08/09/10 09:15 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: shakey56]
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flicka
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Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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So God holds copyrights? Gawddamn!
No. The people making money off God hold copyrights. God gave the ONE TRUE VERSION (aka King James Version) to Public Domain.
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#191018 - 08/09/10 09:31 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: flicka]
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shakey56
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lol...so the one true version was written around the time the shroud farce was created?
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#191020 - 08/09/10 09:36 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Believe what you want Shakey..your perogative and your judgement.
Paul
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#191022 - 08/09/10 09:52 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: shakey56]
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flicka
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Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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lol...so the one true version was written around the time the shroud farce was created?
Truthfully, I have no clue. I have avoided the shroud deal completely. I'm like Paulwa in that I don't bother myself with such hogwash (unless it's the virgin Mary on a tortilla featured on Ebay).
My preference for the King James Version of the bible stems from my upbringing in church & parochial school. I've grown accustomed to the writing style & prose of that version. It pisses me off when others offer me "words or phrases from their mindset".
On a side note...the guy I dated for 4 years before I met Bill, gave me a NIV version of the bible -- with study guide -- for Christmas one year. Ermmm... Is that a "polite" way of saying that you think my thoughts on the bible are off base, or what???
He was LDS at the time, but I think he really wanted to be an atheist. Not sure why I related this, but I'm sure it's relevant. :-)
Edited by flicka (08/09/10 09:55 PM)
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#191023 - 08/09/10 09:53 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
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Posts: 1889
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lol...how many times do I have to tell you? For me belief has nothing to do with it. I accept or reject evidence. The only viable evidence places the shroud in the middle ages.
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#191024 - 08/09/10 09:54 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: flicka]
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ghoti
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How do you figure the King James is the "one true version"? I like it because I enjoy the flowery and archaic version of English used in it, but a lot of people find it frustrating and difficult to read.
The King James was NOT the first ever translation into English. The Bishop's Bible, the Geneva Bible, and the Great Bible, among others, all preceded it and were used as a basis for the King James. The King James has also been revised several times since the first printing.
Many of the newer versions of the Bible are actual translations directly from the old Hebrew, Greek, and Latin documents into more modern language than the King James. The real problem with any translation, even the King James, is that it isn't ever possible to convert every nuance of one language into another without the risk of losing some of the subtlety of meaning, especially with a book as complex as the Bible.
That's why IMO it's dangerous to obsess too much over specific passages in the Bible. Even if you assume the originals were inspired directly by God, those originals were lost long ago and all we have to go on is copies of copies and translations, and there's no way to ever prove that they're really accurate.
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#191025 - 08/09/10 09:54 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: flicka]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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Virgin Mary tortillas are tasty!
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#191028 - 08/10/10 11:07 AM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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That is why the Lord Jesus sent His Holy Spirit to live within every true believer and committed to the Lord. He comforts us wth God's peace and brings to our rememberance the truths of God so when we read the bible He sees that we know the truth that other unbelievers dismiss so quickly.
Tortillas are pretty good but probly better wth salsa than a vague picture of anyone on them!
Paul
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#191029 - 08/10/10 11:07 AM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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That is why the Lord Jesus sent His Holy Spirit to live within every true believer and committed to the Lord. He comforts us wth God's peace and brings to our rememberance the truths of God so when we read the bible He sees that we know the truth that other unbelievers dismiss so quickly.
Tortillas are pretty good but probly better with salsa than a vague picture of anyone on them!
Paul
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#191032 - 08/10/10 12:32 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: ghoti]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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How do you figure the King James is the "one true version"?
I was joking...
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#191033 - 08/10/10 12:40 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: flicka]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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I kinda figured, but my post still relates to everyone who does think the King James is the only correct version. Other than just faith that it's the "one true version", is there any actual evidence backing that up?
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#191038 - 08/10/10 01:56 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: ghoti]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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That would be impossible...
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#191047 - 08/10/10 06:22 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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KJV is the most long lived, most christianizing word of God in existance above all others. IMO
(Not that I don't read the rest of the versions from time to time and compare.)
Paul:-)
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#191052 - 08/10/10 08:10 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Plus, KJV is recommended by the Gideons and is the most stolen book from motels & hotels. Funny, huh? They want you to steal it. The Gideons hope their bibles are "stolen" and consider their work has been done when one turns up missing. I guess they think it's your final crime. lol
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#191053 - 08/10/10 08:14 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Paul I
Member
Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 7913
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As I've said before if I were a religious scholar sitting around the table with others trying to decide which and what of the scriptures should go into the Bible when it was all over I'd say to me peers "how do we get people to accept and go by this?" "It's easy" one of the other scholars would say. " We just finish each book by saying THIS THE WORD OF THE LORD. Who would question it?" How do Christians know it's the word of God? Because people decided it was and said so. I'm sure the original scriptures, notes, etc. didn't say so at the end of each section they were carved into.
Therefore, since I wasn't there to see the nature and facts of the decision making events and to assume it's the word of God as stated by the editors and writers of the Bible is certainly open to question. Simply saying "I believe it" is a totally random and subjective decision. It is somewhat like the clergy,
before astronomers really began to get it all together,
believed, had faith in, knew God made it so that the earth was clearly the center of the universe. Be very careful of the canyon
between "I believe" and "it is a fact that"... I imagine no two people totally agree on every fact, story, word and implication in the Bible but each believes their view is correct. Consider the implications of that.
Edited by Paul I (08/10/10 08:18 PM)
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"...only the shadow knows"
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#191056 - 08/11/10 05:52 AM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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KJV is the most long lived, most christianizing word of God in existance above all others. IMO
(Not that I don't read the rest of the versions from time to time and compare.)
Paul:-)
Not true, Paulwa. The Catholic Bible has existed since the 400's AD so it's been around nearly 1200 years longer than the KJV. Catholics are also by far the largest Christian denomination world-wide.
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#191060 - 08/11/10 11:39 AM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I personally do not believe the statistics you keep bringing up Steve. Most are far outdated. We need some up to date statistics..that are unbiased! After the rapture your nold statistics may be a bit more accurate. ;-)
Paul
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#191071 - 08/11/10 02:24 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Paulwa, the Latin Vulgate Bible was first translated by Jerome in 405 AD at the order of Pope Damasus I. This was the accepted Bible by the Catholic church until it was later offered as a translation into English and other languages. That means it pre-dated the KJV by 1200 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate
World-wide there are approximately 1.2 billion Catholics and about 670 million followers of all the Protestant denominations combined. That means nearly 2/3 of all Christians in the world are Catholics and only about 1/3 are the various Protestants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members
If you've got any information that contradicts these facts, feel free to post it together with links.
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#191072 - 08/11/10 02:49 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: ghoti]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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Paul doesn't need or want info that contradicts his opinion
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#191073 - 08/11/10 03:09 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I'll go with Shakey on this one. :-)
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#191077 - 08/11/10 03:45 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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OK, but just realize that what you believe to be true may well be contradicted by the actual truth.
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#191078 - 08/11/10 03:46 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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or what other people believe to be true but may not be..:-)
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#191080 - 08/11/10 03:58 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Pure religious belief can't be proven true or false by any facts available during life, but we'll all find out once we're on the other side. Saying things like the KJV is the oldest Bible and that it's converted more people than any other version CAN be proven to be untrue, however, since I just did so.
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#191081 - 08/11/10 04:22 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: ghoti]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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Apparently it can't be proven to Paul
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#191085 - 08/11/10 04:56 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: shakey56]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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Paulwa doesn't believe in facts because, as everyone knows, reality is liberally biased...
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I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#191108 - 08/12/10 11:49 AM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: inkblister]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Wow! You guys are really learning..even Buddhists are getting on board. The Gloryland Express is rolling for all who believe. Reality and facts are a fallacy..we are all just a black box with inputs to the outside so our realty is whatever comes through our inputs and is controlled by who we yield too.Think on that..
Paul :-)
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#191109 - 08/12/10 11:50 AM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: inkblister]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Wow! You guys are really learning..even Buddhists are getting on board. The Gloryland Express is rolling for all who believe. Reality and facts are a fallacy..we are all just a black box with inputs to the outside so our realty is whatever comes through our inputs and is controlled by who we yield too.Think on that..
Paul :-)
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#191110 - 08/12/10 11:55 AM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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I'll stick with the peace train
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#191115 - 08/12/10 12:38 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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Wow! You guys are really learning..even Buddhists are getting on board.
Sorry to disappoint you paulwa, but I'm not getting anywhere near a ride that has anything to do with your intinerary...
we are all just a black box with inputs to the outside so our realty is whatever comes through our inputs and is controlled by who we yield too.Think on that..
Paul :-)
duhhhh... Came up with that idea when I was around 10 years old... Twenty minutes later I figured out how stupid it was...
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I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#191118 - 08/12/10 01:09 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: inkblister]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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So what is stupid about it inkblister. Convince me.
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#191120 - 08/12/10 01:19 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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go get him Morpheus, will that be the red pill or the blue pill?
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#191121 - 08/12/10 01:38 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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You know what Paulwa?... Ordinarilly I would, but I have come to realize that in the end it would be nothing more than an exercise in futility on my part... No point in trying to convince the unconvinceable...
No matter what I wrote, from the beginning you are not going to actually read or try to understand what I'm going to say... You'll either just dismiss it as my "foriegn mind" not grasping your sense of "reality" and go off on another "jesus/god says" rant, or it would go completely over your head and you'll still just go off on another "jesus/god says" rant... probably both...
I'll save my energies for someone who will actually listen and consider what I have to say...
Edited by inkblister (08/12/10 01:38 PM)
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#191124 - 08/12/10 05:06 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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starlight.2
Member
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 793
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[quote=Paulwa_dup1 Reality and facts are a fallacy.. [/quote]
paul has never allowed his experience with objective relaity to affect his ability to form an opinion.
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Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.
--Dalai Lama
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#191135 - 08/12/10 06:52 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: starlight.2]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Hi Starlight.
Nice out Inkbluster..er blister. :-)
But what makes you such an authority on that subject?
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#191142 - 08/13/10 12:57 AM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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I wouldn't be the one calling someone on an out when it comes to avoiding having to answer or reply if I were you Mr. "let the dead bury the dead" and "I'm tired of talking about this"... You're the one who has dodged and avoided more questions and requests for proof of your arguements than everyone on this board put together Mr. Kettle...
What authority makes me an expert?... I guess that would be the same authority that seems to make you think you're allowed to judge and condemn everyone and everything without reproach... But then again, I never claimed to posess any kind of expertise, you're the one pressing the moniker onto me...
Tell you what, if anyone else sincerely requests and honestly wishes hear my opinion and theory of the percieved interactions of the inner individual self and that of the outer physical reality, I'll oblige... But I'm not going to waste my time and energy on someone who's going to dismiss what I have to say before even hearing it...
Edited by inkblister (08/13/10 01:10 AM)
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#191155 - 08/13/10 12:40 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: inkblister]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Precisely why I don't answer many pointed underhanded questions and why I have decided to go into lurking mode and as of now, maybe no longer post. I have enough problems to deal with than to be put down and badgered around here and PQ. So long and don't let life hit you in the arse on your way out!!!
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#191157 - 08/13/10 12:42 PM
Re: Another approach to religion.
[Re: inkblister]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Precisely why I don't answer many pointed underhanded questions and why I have decided to go into lurking mode and as of now, maybe no longer post. I have enough problems to deal with than to be put down and badgered around here and PQ. So long and don't let life hit you in the arse on your way out!!!
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