#189616 - 07/20/10 06:41 AM
True Buddhism Just Not Cuttin' It
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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and, shhhh...SHHHhh, quiet! Can you hear it? ...it's the sound of herding cats, errrr...cats herding, wHatEver it is that they do..it's a Mess:
The new Buddhist atheism
A book setting out the principles of a pared-down Buddhism has won praise from arch-atheist Christopher Hitchens
Mark Vernon
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 10 March 2010 14.15 GMT
Article history
In God is Not Great, Christopher Hitchens writes of Buddhism as the sleep of reason, and of Buddhists as discarding their minds as well as their sandals. His passionate diatribe appeared in 2007. So what's he doing now, just three years later, endorsing a book on Buddhism written by a Buddhist?
The new publication is Confession of a Buddhist Atheist. Its author, Stephen Batchelor, is at the vanguard of attempts to forge an authentically western Buddhism. He is probably best known for Buddhism Without Beliefs, in which he describes himself as an agnostic. Now he has decided on atheism, the significance of which is not just that he doesn't believe in transcendent deities, but is also found in his stripping down of Buddhism to the basics.
Reincarnation and karma are rejected as Indian accretions: his study of the historical Siddhartha Gautama – one element in the new book – suggests the Buddha himself was probably indifferent to these doctrines. What Batchelor believes the Buddha did preach were four essentials. First, the conditioned nature of existence, which is to say everything continually comes and goes. Second, the practice of mindfulness, as the way to be awake to what is and what is not. Third, the tasks of knowing suffering, letting go of craving, experiencing cessation and the "noble path". Fourth, the self-reliance of the individual, so that nothing is taken on authority, and everything is found through experience.
It's a moving and thoughtful book that does not fear to challenge. It will cause consternation, not least for its quietly harsh critique of Tibetan Buddhism as authoritarian. It is full of phrases that stick in the mind, such as "religion is life living itself."
Hitchens calls it "honest" and "serious", a model of self-criticism, and an example of the kind of ethical and scientific humanism "in which lies our only real hope". The endorsement makes sense because Batchelor's is an account of Buddhism for "this world alone". His deployment of reason and evidence, coupled to the imperative to remake Buddhism and hold no allegiance to inherited doctrines, would appeal to Hitchens. And not just Hitchens.
For it's also striking that the first date on the tour Batchelor is currently undertaking to launch the book was hosted not by a temple or meditation centre, but by the humanist chaplaincy of Harvard University. Batchelor's preferred term is "secular" Buddhism, but his work clearly appeals to some atheistic humanists – not least Greg Epstein, the humanist chaplain at Harvard.
Epstein sees Batchelor's contributions as part of a trend in contemporary humanism, one he calls the "new humanism". It's a humanism that focuses not so much on assertions and campaigns, as on an attempt to forge a humanly nourishing way of life. When I ask him, Epstein is nervous of the word "spiritual", though he's keen that organised humanism does more than just "sitting around and philosophising." He himself came to humanism after studying Buddhism. He practices meditation. He tells me that Batchelor's bold attempts to remake Buddhism are appreciated in American humanist circles. There is a hunger for it, he explains, from those who recognise the need for community and ritual. A practice of meditation can provide both: community via the concept of sangha – coming together with a common intent or purpose; ritual by the regular need to practice.
Philosophically, it's easy to see how Batchelor's account of Buddhism might appeal to humanists as well. He draws parallels between the Buddha's teaching and existentialism and pragmatism, two 20th-century philosophies that contemporary humanism has drawn on too.
His quest for the historical Buddha is as interesting. I was reminded of the 19th-century quest for the historical Jesus, which both shattered illusions and inspired new kinds of commitment. Perhaps as theologians now read the Bible as an account of what the first Christians made of the "Jesus event", and treat the text as a resource for responding to it afresh, so western Buddhism will come to be seen not as an exercise in inculturation but as a radically new response to the "Buddha event".
There are questions to ask, such as how compatible Buddhism really is with existentialism and pragmatism. Philosophers like Sartre and Heidegger, for example, are not typically celebrated for their compassion, a key ingredient in any Buddhism. For myself, as an agnostic, I was saddened that Batchelor has now definitively opted for atheism: the closure on the transcendent that decision represents felt like a partial turning away from his previous open efforts to discern the nature of things.
But his books have always challenged, in a committed and affecting way. Therein lies their appeal, and long may it continue. Confession of a Buddhist Atheist is engrossing – another window into one man's "life living itself".
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All kidding aside,...was I kidding?  .......this Batchelor's writings, and new Western Buddhism or whatever he's trying to grasp into reality via a new congregation for folk to join (relate to, ...can we say *find themselves in ) should be of interest to agnostics.
I'm interested in reading him (even with my nagging bias) and I'm not even a Buddhist. Think how much more interested I'd be if I Were...a Buddhist. Reason that I'd be interested in reading him, I suppose, boils down to the fact that he's made the leap (like a cat...  ) from agnostic ....to....atheism. And, of course it goes without saying that his book has won praise from arch-atheist Christopher Hitchens....cus he's an atheist in need of another atheist to join the club. Now here's the real kicker: an Atheist ( Hitchens) , praising the likes of (like he could be any authority on the whole Buddhist thing) a Paired-Down Buddhism approach to living a spiritual life (or, whatever works for people....get it, yet? ....it's not working!). hmpfth...I kinda think if I were a Buddhist I'd be a tad offended. But then, Buddhists are pretty grounded people...they don't set off aLARMS about man's choice of religion. well....exceptions to the fact, being, those that hang on messageboards.
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#189617 - 07/20/10 06:42 AM
Re: True Buddhism Just Not Cuttin' It
[Re: ævory]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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Great post, Aevory!
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#189620 - 07/20/10 08:00 AM
Re: True Buddhism Just Not Cuttin' It
[Re: ævory]
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corlorde
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Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 9246
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I pray Aevory, I pray a lot. Is it to God, the sand whatever we have created in our minds? I was raised protestant ( my real dad is a raised... not really important) and my mom is devoutly religious. I once talked to a friend of mine in Candia NH named Jay about my conflicts who made more sense to me than a lifetime of pastors. When I answered Starlight's questionnaire I remember saying that it is not that I did not believe in a higher power but that, I turned my back on my faith. When you have seen what I have, it is hard to reconcile it all. Now, I do what is best for me. I can call it being blessed, good luck, whatever. Organized Dogma no longer works for me. Having said that, praying, wishing, hoping (non of it force multiplying) makes me 'feel' good. So I do it, and I make "associations" to it.
That is what it is.
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#189621 - 07/20/10 08:01 AM
Re: True Buddhism Just Not Cuttin' It
[Re: ævory]
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starlight.2
Member
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 793
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are the voices in your head talking to each other or something?
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Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.
--Dalai Lama
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#189622 - 07/20/10 08:06 AM
Re: True Buddhism Just Not Cuttin' It
[Re: starlight.2]
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corlorde
Member
Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 9246
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are the voices in your head talking to each other or something?
Being an academic, is that necessary? Having a Doctorate degree, you really should be more tolerant. Are you teaching?
Edited by corlorde (07/20/10 08:13 AM)
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#189649 - 07/20/10 02:33 PM
Re: True Buddhism Just Not Cuttin' It
[Re: corlorde]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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Tolerance is a two way street. When the religious start showing some for the nonbelievers they can expect to get some in return.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#189655 - 07/20/10 04:08 PM
Re: True Buddhism Just Not Cuttin' It
[Re: shakey56]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Corey, the fact that you posted at 10:00 am and Star at 10:01 makes me think she was likely referring to Ronda, not you.
And Ronda, what exactly is your point? In my limited understanding of Buddhism, it has always been an "atheistic" religion in that there are no Buddhist Gods. Buddhism is much more an examination of self than a worship of deities.
Inkblister would be the best to answer that since he is Buddhist.
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#189660 - 07/20/10 04:27 PM
Re: True Buddhism Just Not Cuttin' It
[Re: ghoti]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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I too assumed she was responding to Ronda.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#189690 - 07/20/10 06:27 PM
Re: True Buddhism Just Not Cuttin' It
[Re: shakey56]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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Of course corey knew it was directed at me. Anyone who has lived a day on this board could pick up that it was meant for me.
Look, I've had fun...I HAVE fun, with myself, and what I want to say. Why wouldn't I?
Thank you, Corey, for posting on my post. And a big thanks, for sharing.
ga-nite
Edited by ævory (07/20/10 06:43 PM)
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#189700 - 07/20/10 07:09 PM
Re: True Buddhism Just Not Cuttin' It
[Re: ævory]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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I don't get your point of the post, though. Since Buddhism is essentially a-theistic (meaning without Gods), why is it surprising that an atheist might feel some kinship with it?
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#189723 - 07/21/10 03:26 AM
Re: True Buddhism Just Not Cuttin' It
[Re: ghoti]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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I am not familiar with the Batchelor fellow, but from what I understand from the article he is meerly trying to establish a "westernized" interpretation of Buddhism and as a Buddhist myself, I have no problem with it... In fact, from a "true" Buddhist point of view this is a perfectly natural and acceptable evolution of Buddhism... One of the core teachings of Buddhism is that all things in existance are temporary and in a constant state of change, even Buddhism itself... As cultures, societies, and ideas change, so must Buddhism... It is only natural, for if it does not it will stagnate, become obsolete, and die off... Another core teaching is to question everything, again even Buddhism itself... So for someone to take Buddhism and percieve it from another point of view can only make it stronger and it's followers more self aware of their beliefs... The many sects of Buddhism are each different facets of the same jewel and contribute to it's beauty... I myself am a Jugo Sen Zen Buddhist, a rather small sect, and some of it's teachings are contrary to aspects of other sects, but all Buddhists recognize we all share the same core... If you were to look at the three main sects of Buddhism (Indian, Tibetian, and Zen) separately, you would think they were three completely different religions... Each of these sects changed and evolved to fit the way each of their respective followers lived, but the core teachings, lessons, and beliefs remain constant... Just like Christianity and it's denominations (Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Evangelical, etc.)... I don't recall the name, but there is even a sect (I believe it's in Southeast Asia) that believe's Jesus was a reincarination of Buddha and that Jesus's sermons were that of Buddhism, but altered and changed into a form that the people of that place and time could understand... An interesting thought (although I am sure Paulwa and Aevory find this concept totally appalling)...
As far as the "Atheistic" concept, I have to disagree... While it is true that Buddhism has no god, it is deeply spiritual and seeks to reach beyond the physical world (In fact Zen Buddhism goes even further and believes that reality itself is meerly an illusion, but I'm getting ahead of myself)... From my viewpoint, Atheism not only does not believe in god, but in souls or spirits as well... That we are just physical beings in a physical world and that there is nothing beyond this reality in any metaphysical sense...
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I like to think to think that we Buddhists are pretty grounded Aevory, and I thank you for the compliment... However, This may come as a complete shock to your little world, but we Buddhists happen to be people too... Really!... It's true!... Just because I am a Buddist I am not allowed to have passion, feelings, or *gasp* an opinion?... Trust me, I can be a Buddhist and an asshole and it's okay... Just like you can be a Christian and a complete bitch and that's okay too...
And for the record, I have never criticized anyone's beliefs (I assume you were insinuating Paulwa and my altercations), but how they chose to express their beliefs by shoving it everyone's face at any opportunity and to state it all as fact, while also demeaning and putting other's faiths down... I challenge you to find ANYTHING negative I have stated about anyone's choice of religion...
Take a bit of friendly advice and STFU unless you know what you're talking about...
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I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#189729 - 07/21/10 09:39 AM
Re: True Buddhism Just Not Cuttin' It
[Re: inkblister]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Interesting that Buddhism sees reality as an illusion. Theories in physics such as string theory and Einstein's relativity tell us that we are living in a universe made up of more than three dimensions, although we can only perceive three of them through our senses.
That would mean that what we sense as "reality" is indeed an illusion.
Inkblister, I apologize if it seems I was equating Buddhism with atheism. I guess I should have said something like Buddhism is oriented toward spirituality rather than worshiping a deity, which makes it non-theist rather than a-theist. I do realize that pure atheists reject Buddhism along with all other religions.
In talking to young people, I find a lot of dissatisfaction with traditional US religions. IMO we have a very large group of young people whose spirituality is much more oriented toward a Buddhist/Pagan mindset rather than the regular organized faiths.
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#189736 - 07/21/10 11:54 AM
Re: True Buddhism Just Not Cuttin' It
[Re: ghoti]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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No worries ghoti, I undestood what you were trying to say, I just wanted to clarify and expound on the comparison...
On a similar note, I read an article a few weeks ago (I don't recall where) about how Buddhism is the fastest growing religion among former Atheists and Agnostics by about 700% compared to other religions worldwide... When asked why, most converts answered that Buddhism was the most logical, reasoning, and practical belief that filled the gap between modern reality and individual spirituality... Rather than relying on "blind faith", these people felt more comfortable with a faith that admits it does not have all the answers, but is willing to and even encourage questioning everything, even itself... It is through this questioning and the search for the answers that encourages growth, many times it is the journey that is more important and fulfilling than the destination...
Edited by inkblister (07/21/10 12:04 PM)
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I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#189743 - 07/21/10 01:58 PM
Re: True Buddhism Just Not Cuttin' It
[Re: inkblister]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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Of course it's growing because the atheists are still finding themselves. Agnostics too! NOW, I speak of 'organized' religion....no diff. when you talk, ghoti, And inkie, about religious folk. Is there? You congregate! and it aint workin for the atheist so he's lookin for somethin ,,,somethin, somethin More. When ya'll get done scattering in the process of trying to gather...well, then talk to us christians. lol, or rather, talk down to the religious and their dogmas. You got dogma written all over this board (well, cept for a very very small handful ...I'm talkin bout the prolific posters on the religion and or the political forum)///maybe not dogma in a religious way of thinkin, but you got dogma, baby. Now, I'm gonna run up there and see what else is new today!
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#189747 - 07/21/10 02:55 PM
Re: True Buddhism Just Not Cuttin' It
[Re: ævory]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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Of course it's growing because the atheists are still finding themselves. Agnostics too! NOW, I speak of 'organized' religion....no diff. when you talk, ghoti, And inkie, about religious folk. Is there? You congregate! and it aint workin for the atheist so he's lookin for somethin ,,,somethin, somethin More. When ya'll get done scattering in the process of trying to gather...well, then talk to us christians. lol, or rather, talk down to the religious and their dogmas. You got dogma written all over this board (well, cept for a very very small handful ...I'm talkin bout the prolific posters on the religion and or the political forum)///maybe not dogma in a religious way of thinkin, but you got dogma, baby. Now, I'm gonna run up there and see what else is new today!
Could someone please translate this mess into a coherent thought?... aevory, I have no idea what you are trying to say when you are typing in tongues... Step back, take a deep breath and try to make some sense please...
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I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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