#189371 - 07/16/10 02:21 PM
For Paulwa...
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Exodus 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#189422 - 07/16/10 09:44 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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God just laying down the rules for early Israel. God in the beginning mentions the Gods as Eloim. I think this is the trinity. God gave tribal leaders to rule the tribes and the people were not to curse their leadings and decisions. My take on it. Paul
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#190267 - 07/27/10 08:45 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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Wicca is just a bunch of garbage concocted by satan. Wiccans have no idea what they worship.
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#190270 - 07/27/10 09:03 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Actually, Wiccans know exactly what they worship. It's the creator in the form of a mother-earth Goddess. I'm always amazed at the different ways the glory of the creator has been revealed to people of different cultures.
I don't know what that has to do with flicka's original post, however.
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#190277 - 07/28/10 06:22 AM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ghoti]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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wicca is a culture? now i understand the thinking of a liberal even better.
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#190280 - 07/28/10 07:59 AM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ævory]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Practice reading comprehension skills, please. The Wiccan religion developed long ago among the mostly rural people of northern Europe, who had a very different culture from more city-oriented southern Europeans. People of different cultures tend to have very different views of the creator.
IMO that may well be because he has revealed himself (or herself) to different people over time in ways that would make sense to them. If God is infinite, then it would make perfect sense to do exactly that.
Edited by ghoti (07/28/10 08:00 AM)
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#190297 - 07/28/10 12:12 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I really don't have any knowledge about Wiccans. My book of guidance, the bible says there is a lot of false religions in the world. So for me if it doesn't follow the bible it is.. Paul
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#190304 - 07/28/10 01:47 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ghoti]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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Practice reading comprehension skills, please. The Wiccan religion developed long ago among the mostly rural people of northern Europe, who had a very different culture from more city-oriented southern Europeans. People of different cultures tend to have very different views of the creator.
IMO that may well be because he has revealed himself (or herself) to different people over time in ways that would make sense to them. If God is infinite, then it would make perfect sense to do exactly that.
The Wiccan religion developed long ago among the mostly rural people of northern Europe, who had a very different culture from more city-oriented southern Europeans <----See, the beauty of this statement? You get to say it, and if there were a Wiccan on the board (anyone? kimberlyb, maybe?) they really wouldn't be interested in debating you over it because they don't know and don't care.
People of different cultures tend to have very different views of the creator<------ This is why I was surprised at your choice of words, ghoti. It is also why I said what I did. And it fits into the sack of correctness for the rest of your understanding of the Wiccan religion, according to you.
I spent a good deal of time when I moved to CA over 5 yrs ago buying and reading books on Wiccan. I had a man I was dating who was......1/2 this and half that....and he was pretty energized by what he believed, and he suggested I look into it. That doesn't mean I know a thing about anything. But I do remember being conflicted by the places in CA where I could have met with those who practiced Wiccan ....comparing, in my imagination, the benefit of practicing it and learning it on my own. SINGLE person....vs joining a covent/group. See, in all the books I had, and I must have bought around 5...none of them agreed on whether one can truly BE a wiccan or hold wiccan belief w/o being part of a group of others. I never Did do anything with what I learned except...lol, go to a local neighborhood lake/park and draw a circle around my wheelchair in the hot sand...and think. Much later, the books went out the window, for me, and I didn't do any witchcraft to make it happen.
So, a religion which does not recognize a specific culture (I mean, I've always thought first of the Celtics) added to the fact that there is no real definitive knowledge of how to get a religion Off the ground...tells me that your statement about the Wiccan way is, just IYO. It is false and misleading. You may be right...on some level, but you don't know. It deserved an IMO. Reading comprehension or not.
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#190305 - 07/28/10 01:49 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ævory]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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Chief Captain does not make a king. (flicka's post)
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#190323 - 07/28/10 07:41 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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Lola
Member
Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 5944
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Wicca is just a bunch of garbage concocted by satan. Wiccans have no idea what they worship. and you have no idea what you ae talking about, you protestant freak
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#190325 - 07/28/10 08:43 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: Lola]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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lol...relax Lola. Ronnie has not a single clue on any subject. Doubt he even knows his own address.
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#190329 - 07/28/10 09:24 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: shakey56]
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Lola
Member
Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 5944
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lol, true, shakey!
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#190330 - 07/29/10 01:36 AM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: Lola]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Ronda, my daughter and a large group of her friends are Wiccan plus I have a friend who is an ordained Wiccan priest and regularly performs weddings in this area. It's just possible that I know more about the subject than you think.
Edited by ghoti (07/29/10 01:37 AM)
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#190337 - 07/29/10 04:28 AM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ghoti]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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Of course, Ghoti. That always goes without saying and I do stop myself at various times to think :they may know more than ...
just as ronnie deserves the respect of others.
this respect shit you all think is working, only works within yourselves and I'm glad it does. But it's like religion...as far as This bunch here on NM...this particular brand of respect here....it ain't for me. That having been said, I'm well aware that you may or may not know as much as I can gleem off a post on a messageboard. All I said was, according to the very rules you set yourself for others, your statements, often, deserve an IMO before or after them. Me, You aren't going to find an IMO often...it's redundant -- and a given.
Maybe I don't need the IMO because I don't immediately jump in sensitivity over what another says...their beliefs. Their bullshit namecalling is up for Any calling...that's another story.
My neighbor, he's said three times now to my face that he would not care if pres. obama got .... and I winced, and said -- well, I don't want to see that happen to anyone but I don't want him in office a second-time around. And he said, I DO ! I WOULDN"T CARE if he was ...and he went on to say: What did Obama care of this country when he ruins it ...yada yada...when my own uncle fought in 5 different brigades across Europe (I think he used the term brigades) was Obama caring?
and on and on he went....NOW, I like the man, in fact, he's one of my favorites where I live and it's because of simply 'who he is'...he says it like it is, he's got a marshmallow heart, ---I won't describe incidents to prove it.....I RESPECT the man. I don't call him a hater. I don't point my stupid little finger at him like ya'll do here on NM and PQ because I don't make that call. I haven't got those eyes. As far as I'm concerned, God is the only one who has those eyes to make that call. You and I, we are nothing but equal. Sherry38 was the very first one to start that shit with the finger pointing 'hater' label. And what it does is wear a person down and you who do it, count on that. You hope that the experience another has here, by being called a hater, will rub off on them. You hope that they will learn, thru reinforcement of the hater label, to hate coming here.....because, unless they change for youse, they will be labeled as such. Plenty of folk have left here...worn down. Screw the respect here, screw the I know what I know...cus, I don't. I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt, on my own.
I understand that Wiccans are about the here and now and do not have a cultural beginning. and not to disrespect you (respect didn't enter my mind when I wrote it) but I siad that if one were on this board, they wouldn't argue or debate you on it cus they are not 'about that'. they don't care...
Have a great day.
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#190345 - 07/29/10 08:49 AM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ævory]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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I respect Ronnie's right to believe as he chooses. I see him showing a lot of disrespect in return, and he deserves to get called on that. He also gets called when he makes statements like "dinosaurs were on the ark" since it would have been physically impossible IMO.
It isn't because someone is a fundie that they get challenged on this board. Anyone who shows disrespect for the beliefs of others and makes strong statements that are unsupported would and should get the same, regardless of beliefs.
Fundamentalists just seem to be frequent offenders in those areas.
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#190350 - 07/29/10 10:54 AM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Ghoti God arranged the animals to go aboard the ark and the dinosaurs could have been babies or even eggs in some cases. With God all things are possible. Ronnie isn't as far off as some of you imagine. He just gets angry with unbelievers and their beliefs. I have met many with this anger and have felt it myself at times. But God wants us to learn to love everybody, even those we may see as enemies. Yes even extremist muslims if they will let us which most won't. God expects us tyo defend ourslves from unreasonable people too. Paul
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#190359 - 07/29/10 11:22 AM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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Loving someone is not a matter of them letting you. Work on being a better Christian, brother Paul
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#190362 - 07/29/10 11:29 AM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Yep! I try and die daily and can always do better than I do when I am able...BTW PQ is down..
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#190367 - 07/29/10 12:09 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Paulwa, you know the ark could have never carried two of every animal on earth even of those alive today, let alone Noah being able to gather them from all the far continents. The author of that passage either meant it as an allegory or didn't understand how big the world really is and how many different species exist.
I imagine the few species known to primitive people in the middle-east in those days would have fit, and that seems what the author had in mind. It's a ridiculous idea based on modern knowledge.
You can always brush it aside by saying "with God, all things are possible" but that's just ducking the issue. I'd be far more impressed with the Bible if it had talked about carrying eggs and sperm or genetic samples since those things were unknown back then.
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#190394 - 07/29/10 06:55 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Several scientists say there was plenty of room for all the animals on the ark and gave the math to prove it. They have convinced me but it is up to you to make up your own mind. Paul
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#190402 - 07/29/10 08:27 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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See, you keep saying stuff like that with no proof. Please post a link to those scientists, or else don't use them as evidence.
A cubit was about 18" long, so the Bible says the Ark was about 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet deep. That's good-sized, but tiny compared to cargo ships and oil tankers of today.
Creating stalls for every animal species that exists today, let alone extinct species, would be impossible. Then there's the matter of feeding and watering them all and mucking out the stalls with so few people.
It couldn't be done unless they just carried DNA samples and used cloning technology to regrow the animals later. If the Bible said something like that I'd be impressed, but it clearly doesn't.
Here's a very thorough study of the problems, complete with references:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
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#190409 - 07/30/10 06:19 AM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ghoti]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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See, you keep saying stuff like that with no proof. Please post a link to those scientists, or else don't use them as evidence.
That Would make this more interesting and fun. I agree. But really, are you saying you can't google any up? I mean, he's just sayin', ya know....kinda like you do on other stuff. And we all do, from time to time. The Bible is his final evidence, anyway, and so everyone knows that it would be a waste of his time. lol, are you trying to say it is a waste of his time to say something without googling it?
Edited by ævory (07/30/10 06:21 AM)
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#190410 - 07/30/10 06:50 AM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ævory]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Here's what Paulwa said:
Several scientists say there was plenty of room for all the animals on the ark and gave the math to prove it.
What's wrong with my asking to see a link so I can see for myself? I know that several people have done the math to prove exactly the opposite, and I posted a link to a very in-depth study of the subject.
If someone says they believe something is true, then it's their choice as long as they don't demand that others believe it, too.. But if they say they have proof, then they have an obligation to demonstrate it themselves or at least provide a link.
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#190417 - 07/30/10 11:01 AM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Just proof to myself Ghoti because the scientists are cristian and thus creationisst oriented. No point to post even if I had that information. Just stating why I disagree with the information that you have been posting because your sources discredit God. When that happens there is no argument worth talking about for a christian. But because I am here I have to post my disagreement whether I choose to argue with some one very unlikely to change their minds. Changing minds is not my job either but is the job of the Holy Spirit. So if it doesn't happen then that is His results and His reasons for it. Paul
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#190418 - 07/30/10 11:20 AM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Just because a source may contradict your interpretation of the Bible, it doesn't mean it necessarily challenges God. IMO the Bible is just an old book written back when people had a very limited understanding of their world and science. Because of that, many of the stories it contains are obviously only allegories and not meant to be taken literally.
You, of course, are free to disagree. Our view of the creator is very different, but at least we agree that he exists. We'll both find out the real truth soon enough, so why obsess about the details now?
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#190424 - 07/30/10 01:04 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ghoti]
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boogerman
Member
Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 43
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The Old testament is a wonderful teaching tool, some of the stories may even be true, not at all unlike Jesus useing parables as teaching tools.
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#190431 - 07/30/10 05:28 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: boogerman]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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Is it true that Wicca is older than Christianity? I've heard that from people who claim to be Wiccans. Does anyone believe that's true?
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#190432 - 07/30/10 07:05 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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People in northern Europe (including the Gauls, Goths, and Britons, among others) followed a variety of Pagan religions back into the very distant past. Wicca was one of them, but since most of those people were illiterate very little in the way of detailed records exist outside of what the Romans wrote about them.
Wicca has never been a highly organized religion, and the modern version is mostly a revival of old ideas rather than a smooth continuation. Hardly surprising, since Wicca was very brutally suppressed by Christians for a long, long time.
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#190438 - 07/30/10 08:35 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ghoti]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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People in northern Europe (including the Gauls, Goths, and Britons, among others) followed a variety of Pagan religions back into the very distant past. Wicca was one of them, but since most of those people were illiterate very little in the way of detailed records exist outside of what the Romans wrote about them.
Wicca has never been a highly organized religion, and the modern version is mostly a revival of old ideas rather than a smooth continuation. Hardly surprising, since Wicca was very brutally suppressed by Christians for a long, long time.
Is that right?
I doubt it. But you seem to like the sound of it so it doesn't matter what I say about it.
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#190441 - 07/30/10 09:16 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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What do you think is incorrect about it? Here's a quote from a well-respected unbiased source:
Wicca is a religion based, in part, on ancient, northern European Pagan beliefs in a fertility Goddess and her consort, a horned God. Although the religion is a modern creation, some of its sources pre-date the Christian era by many centuries.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_hist.htm
The modern Wiccan faith is a recent religion (established around 1950 in England) that is based on what little is actually known of the ancient religion by the same name. My daughter and several of her friends are Wiccan plus a friend of mine is an ordained Wiccan priest (as I've said earlier) so my knowledge of it is fairly direct.
Edited by ghoti (07/30/10 09:19 PM)
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#190444 - 07/30/10 10:14 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ghoti]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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What do you think is incorrect about it? Here's a quote from a well-respected unbiased source: Wicca is a religion based, in part, on ancient, northern European Pagan beliefs in a fertility Goddess and her consort, a horned God. Although the religion is a modern creation, some of its sources pre-date the Christian era by many centuries. http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_hist.htmThe modern Wiccan faith is a recent religion (established around 1950 in England) that is based on what little is actually known of the ancient religion by the same name. My daughter and several of her friends are Wiccan plus a friend of mine is an ordained Wiccan priest (as I've said earlier) so my knowledge of it is fairly direct.
I don't believe that Wicca was ever practiced by any ancient people. I believe that little is known about ancient Wiccan practices because there was nothing to know and the religion didn't exist at that time. I think it's a lot of baloney. I don't think any Wica religion existed until around 1950. There is no proof that it existed prior to that.
Edited by ronniechoate34 (07/30/10 10:14 PM)
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#190446 - 07/30/10 11:16 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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It's certainly true that the rituals of modern Wicca were developed over the last 60 years or so. There most definitely are lots of historical records of people practicing some form of witchcraft as a religion way back before the beginnings of Christianity, since it's even mentioned in the Old Testament:
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
It's likely that modern Wicca has little in common with the older religion than name, however. If that's what you're getting at, then I'd agree with you.
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#190475 - 07/31/10 02:19 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ghoti]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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It's unbelievable, and yet people believe it. It's a cunningly devised religion and a marvelous destroyer of men. This religion is certainly the fruit of satan. But you can't tell a Wiccan that.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Wiccans don't know what they worship.
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#190479 - 07/31/10 02:38 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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t's unbelievable, and yet people believe it. It's a cunningly devised religion and a marvelous destroyer of men. But you can't tell a Christian that.
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#190485 - 07/31/10 03:33 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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The bible is the only salvation mankind will ever see. Take my word for it. Paul
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#190489 - 07/31/10 03:49 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Ronnie, what is the source of your knowledge of Wicca? Do you actually know anyone who is Wiccan? Have you discussed their beliefs with any of them? Have you read the Book of Shadows?
It's always a bad idea to just read what outsiders to a faith have to say about it without going to the source.
And to paulwa: Sorry, but I prefer to make up my own mind rather than taking your word for it.
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#190490 - 07/31/10 03:52 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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The bible is the only salvation mankind will ever see. Take my word for it. Paul
lol...no thanks.
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#190501 - 07/31/10 06:31 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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OK don't tell the Lord I didn't try. :-) Paul
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#190516 - 08/01/10 09:40 AM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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starlight.2
Member
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 793
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It's unbelievable, and yet people believe it. It's a cunningly devised religion and a marvelous destroyer of men. This religion is certainly the fruit of satan. But you can't tell a Wiccan that.
every religion that includes women in positions of power has at one point been accused of being a "destroyer of men".
_________________________
Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace. --Dalai Lama
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#190591 - 08/03/10 12:03 PM
Re: For Paulwa...
[Re: starlight.2]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Satan is the destroyer of man. Men and women are equal in God's eyes (I think anyway) But it has taken man generations to finally accept this as truth, because he has been protector and provider through the centures and now in civil times he finds that is not always true. There are women who are smarter, stronger, more adept and certainly better looking than men. Of course it does work both ways and that is an unsettling fact still working to become settled.:-) Paul
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