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#188910 - 07/11/10 07:49 PM Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
inkblister inkblister Member Registered: 08/26/04 Posts: 231 Loc: Land of Debris...	Thanks for anwering the question Paulwa... I will try to remember to peruse through some of what you have listed the next time I go to the library... Anyway, the last study I was aware of was 2004, but it was in passing and the shroud isn't really near the top of my interests list anyway... Did take a quick peek at what I could find on the net of more recent studies and most of it seems to be quibbeling about the shroud being "contaminated" during a study in 1988... _________________________ I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#188912 - 07/11/10 08:41 PM Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC [Re: inkblister]
Paulwa_dup1 Paulwa_dup1 Member Registered: 02/12/05 Posts: 4951 Loc: Washington	The carbon 14 test was accurarate I think but the cloth it was performed on was a section of the shroud that had been repaired by invisable weaving. Several scientists have confirmed that, that material is of a later date than the original shroud material. Some scientists believe the data on the image surface ties in to theoretical physics of the micro and macro relativity and may open up new scientific vista's on the beginning of our universe such as black holes? A scientist figuresd that the forming of the image could only have occured by the body rising to a central plane between the top and bottom cloths (which had been pulled totally taut top and bottom and perfectly flat) the body not touching either top or bottom. They still have no idea what formed the image on the cloth. The image is only found on the surface fibrils of the threads. The image has a 3D component not found in normal 2 dimensional images. There are flower images on the shroud but they are only 2 D. The face was blown up in size and it was discovered that the mans eyes were covered by coins. The one they can read over the right eye has letters on its edge and a shepherds crook. It is the coin known as the widows mite and was used exclusvely in Jerusalem in 27-29AD. These are some of the things I remember that was talked about by scientists in the video. Paul
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#188933 - 07/12/10 11:56 AM Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti ghoti Member Registered: 04/06/02 Posts: 8469 Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255	Any video or report about the shroud or anything else that's produced by a religious group is going to be slanted to serve their agenda. The whole truth about the shroud could easily be determined by just allowing several groups of credible and neutral scientists from around the world to study it. That could easily be done without doing any damage to it at all. The church has announced that no further study of the shroud will be permitted again ever. That means they don't want to know the real truth, which seems very suspicious to me. So from now on those people who choose to believe the shroud is genuine will go on believing and we will never know the real truth. _________________________ Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#188935 - 07/12/10 12:08 PM Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC [Re: ghoti]
Paulwa_dup1 Paulwa_dup1 Member Registered: 02/12/05 Posts: 4951 Loc: Washington	There is still some material from the shroud available for testing. One scientist said there are burned edges that could be carbon 14 tested without harming the shroud. I don't think the shroud will be completely withdrawn from testing. But any testng will have to be done where the shroud is kept. You need to watch the video and hear what the scientists are saying about it, Ghoti before putting the whole thing down to phoney status. Hundreds of scientists have spent thousands of hours studying this piece of material with a few who have made their minds up that it is totally phoney. I think most of them are atheist and have an agenda also. Paul
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#188942 - 07/12/10 12:31 PM Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti ghoti Member Registered: 04/06/02 Posts: 8469 Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255	Paulwa, I've seen several programs about the shroud aired on either the Discovery or History channels and I've also read many articles about it. Most of what you're talking about has been thoroughly discussed but it's largely speculation since the shroud has been withdrawn from any further examination. The only true blind scientific studies of the shroud for dating purposes showed that it was made during Medieval times. The notion that the samples they tested came from repairs rather than the original fabric is strictly a supposition that could easily be proven if more samples from other parts of the shroud were tested. That is never going to happen now since the shroud has been withdrawn forever from any further study or testing. Why did they do that if they seriously want to know the truth about it? IMO the church doesn't want to know whether the shroud is genuine or not, otherwise they'd make it available and we'd know the truth. _________________________ Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#188944 - 07/12/10 12:40 PM Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC [Re: ghoti]
Paulwa_dup1 Paulwa_dup1 Member Registered: 02/12/05 Posts: 4951 Loc: Washington	From what I have heard scentists say the carbon 14 dating has been refuted because they have proven it was done on a peice of much later manufacture, I guess you have determined that this is not valid and that the scientist who have proven this fact don't know what they are doing. Paul
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#188948 - 07/12/10 01:11 PM Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
shakey56 shakey56 Member Registered: 03/31/04 Posts: 1889 Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...	Nothing has been proven other than the first sample being from the middle ages. As ghoti said the church doesn't want to know. _________________________ Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188956 - 07/12/10 01:48 PM Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC [Re: shakey56]
ghoti ghoti Member Registered: 04/06/02 Posts: 8469 Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255	Exactly. The carbon-14 dating was done by several different independent labs on samples from different locations. That testing showed all the samples tested were from the middle ages. It has been SPECULATED (but not proven) that the samples tested just happened to all come from repairs that were made during the middle ages. If that were true, then the fabric in actual main part of shroud might be much older. The church could resolve the issue very simply by just allowing more samples from different parts of the shroud to be tested, but they are refusing to allow that to be done. That seems mighty suspicious to me. When someone deliberately withholds evidence that could prove their case one way or the other, you've got to wonder why. Edited by ghoti (07/12/10 01:51 PM) _________________________ Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#188959 - 07/12/10 02:12 PM Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC [Re: ghoti]
Greg Greg Member Registered: 08/20/05 Posts: 10000	Originally Posted By: ghoti The church could resolve the issue very simply by just allowing more samples from different parts of the shroud to be tested Whose to say more testing hasn't been done?
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#188960 - 07/12/10 02:30 PM Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC [Re: Greg]
ghoti ghoti Member Registered: 04/06/02 Posts: 8469 Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255	Do you have a link to any? _________________________ Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#188979 - 07/12/10 05:31 PM Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC [Re: ghoti]
Paulwa_dup1 Paulwa_dup1 Member Registered: 02/12/05 Posts: 4951 Loc: Washington	Some scientists are in talks with the vatican to obtaiin tiny samples from the burned edges of the original materal for carbon 14 testing. It wouldn't harm the shroud to do that and I look for them to allow that in the future.
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#189022 - 07/12/10 10:15 PM Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti ghoti Member Registered: 04/06/02 Posts: 8469 Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255	If they do, it would be very interesting to see the outcome. My understanding is that the Vatican has ordered that no examinations of the shroud will ever be permitted again, so I doubt we'll see that happen. Why don't they just let it be examined by several neutral teams of scientists so the whole thing can be resolved once and for all? _________________________ Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#189060 - 07/13/10 01:46 PM Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC [Re: ghoti]
Paulwa_dup1 Paulwa_dup1 Member Registered: 02/12/05 Posts: 4951 Loc: Washington	There have been many atheist scientists who have examined the shroud and you can guess what their views were of the findings.
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#189082 - 07/13/10 10:57 PM Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti ghoti Member Registered: 04/06/02 Posts: 8469 Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255	So everyone who comes up with results that you disagree with is part of some atheist conspiracy? Do you realize how paranoid and ignorant of the workings of science that sounds? True science is totally neutral toward religion and truth is the only agenda. If one group tries to publish falsified data it will quickly be found out by others. That's why peer review and testing by others to try to verify results are vital parts of science. If some findings from science happen to disagree with religious dogma it should be proof to any educated person that they have been following false dogma. Denial of science is just plain ignorance IMO. Edited by ghoti (07/13/10 11:02 PM) _________________________ Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#189192 - 07/14/10 06:06 PM Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC [Re: ghoti]
Paulwa_dup1 Paulwa_dup1 Member Registered: 02/12/05 Posts: 4951 Loc: Washington	OK, Ghoti. Paul
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