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#188914 - 07/11/10 09:04 PM More proof of Founding Fathers Faith
Paulwa_dup1 Paulwa_dup1 Member Registered: 02/12/05 Posts: 4951 Loc: Washington	http://www.realanswers.net/foundingfathers/index.html Looks as if a majority of them were christian beliievers..at least to me. Paul
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#188931 - 07/12/10 11:29 AM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
shakey56 shakey56 Member Registered: 03/31/04 Posts: 1889 Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...	lmao! Talk abt biased. _________________________ Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188932 - 07/12/10 11:36 AM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti ghoti Member Registered: 04/06/02 Posts: 8469 Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255	Paulwa, the only credible evidence about these things comes from bona-fide historians who have no agenda other than finding the truth. When you use groups that have a Christian agenda as your information sources they simply can't be trusted to give factual information. By the same token, any atheist, Islamic, Mormon, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. organization is going to put their own slant on things and their views are not a credible source of truth about religious matters either. All the genuine scholarly studies that I've seen regarding the religious views of the founding fathers say that while a majority may have been affiliated with various Christian churches, Deism and Unitarianism were the true beliefs of a large number of them. You've got to remember that these people had seen the abuses of a government-sponsored religion (the Church of England) and wanted to be certain that the US never fall into that trap. Even those who favored the Christian faith themselves were determined that their new country stay absolutely neutral on religion, and that's why the constitution is very careful to make NO MENTION of any specific faith system. _________________________ Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#188961 - 07/12/10 02:34 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: ghoti]
shakey56 shakey56 Member Registered: 03/31/04 Posts: 1889 Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...	We all need to remember that for Paul christians have no agenda, and everybody else is terribly biased against the poor, persecuted Christian majority in this country. _________________________ Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188978 - 07/12/10 05:26 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: shakey56]
Paulwa_dup1 Paulwa_dup1 Member Registered: 02/12/05 Posts: 4951 Loc: Washington	That maybe true Ghotii but are you going to discredit the words of the fathers themselves who spoke of Jesus as their saviour?
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#188992 - 07/12/10 06:21 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti ghoti Member Registered: 04/06/02 Posts: 8469 Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255	Paulwa, I know you won't read or believe them since I've posted them before, but there are many websites that list quotations from the Founding Fathers that prove that many had serious doubts about Christianity. Here are just a few: http://www.barefootsworld.net/founding.html http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html http://www.anotherperspective.org/advoc550.html http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?id=6177 http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/dispatch/fathers_quote2.htm http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html IMO, the bottom line is that if they had intended this to be a Christian nation they could easily have done so. Why did they leave all mention of God and Jesus completely out of the constitution? Why not just write Christianity right into it? The simple fact is that they didn't, and that speaks volumes as to their true intentions. _________________________ Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#189016 - 07/12/10 09:22 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: ghoti]
Paulwa_dup1 Paulwa_dup1 Member Registered: 02/12/05 Posts: 4951 Loc: Washington	They didn't want to raise any doctrine to the level that it would be the state religion. They wanted all to be able to follow their hearts and they didn't want government interfering with individuals worship which they certainly are doing today. The Fathers would not have kicked the bible out of the schools because Congress had bibles printed for school use. They would have been flaberghasted at what government is doing to religion in the public forum today and what they are doing to the Ten Commandments and Christmas. The peo[ple trying to strip christian heritage out of our society has a very negative agenda going on. I'll check those links out over a period of time and who is writing them and why. Paul
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#189020 - 07/12/10 09:54 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
shakey56 shakey56 Member Registered: 03/31/04 Posts: 1889 Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...	Paul, congress never had bibles printed for any use. This is another in the long list of Barton lies. They did validate the Aitken bible as accurate and allow him to print them since the lack of trade with England created a shortage. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-rodda/no-mr-beck-congress-did-n_b_598698.html _________________________ Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#189021 - 07/12/10 10:07 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti ghoti Member Registered: 04/06/02 Posts: 8469 Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255	If they had wanted Christianity, the Bible, the Ten Commandments, Jesus, etc. to be a routine part of our country they could have very easily done so. They started with a blank sheet of paper and our Constitution was the document they produced. It has absolutely no mention of anything related to Christianity in any way, shape, or form. In fact, if you read the third paragraph of Article 6 of the Constitution you'll find these words: Quote: no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. Why would that phrase be included in the Constitution if they intended for us to be a Christian nation? _________________________ Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#189025 - 07/13/10 02:55 AM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
inkblister inkblister Member Registered: 08/26/04 Posts: 231 Loc: Land of Debris...	Originally Posted By: Paulwa_dup1 They would have been flaberghasted at what government is doing to religion in the public forum today and what they are doing to the Ten Commandments and Christmas. The peo[ple trying to strip christian heritage out of our society has a very negative agenda going on. I very much doubt they would be "flaberghasted", I believe they would be much more concerned and dismayed about how the American christian community is forcing a their religious agenda into the government and the public at large... They were living in a time when they witnessed the dangers, cruelty, and persecution of a theocratically influenced government first hand, which was why so many fled to here from England and other parts of Europe... They understood how religion (any religion, christian or otherwise) should have absolutly no place in governing how people live and that laws should be based on social equality rather than dogmatic decree... As altruistic you would like to believe christianity is, I honestly believe that if the United States did base it's constitution and society on christian law, it would today be just as oppressive, intolerant, ignorant, manipulative, unstable, and dangerous as countries based on Islamic law (Iran, Yemen, Afganistan, Pakistan, etc.)... Just in a different, but familiar way... In fact, it and the world would probably be worse than we could even imagine as there more than likely would have been countless more wars and deaths purely based on "religious rightousness"... It is the separation of church and state that allows U.S. policy to remain more reasoned and objective than most other countries... It is diversity in all forms that is America's greatest strength... If the founding fathers were as wise as you believe, then I believe they would be wise enough to recognize and be proud about how this country has grown, prospered, and matured without (or at least minimally with) the detramental influence of any dogmatic sway... Edited by inkblister (07/13/10 03:34 AM) _________________________ I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#189031 - 07/13/10 09:18 AM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: inkblister]
starlight.2 starlight.2 Member Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 793	Originally Posted By: inkblister It is diversity in all forms that is America's greatest strength... If the founding fathers were as wise as you believe, then I believe they would be wise enough to recognize and be proud about how this country has grown, prospered, and matured without (or at least minimally with) the detramental influence of any dogmatic sway... well said. _________________________ Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace. --Dalai Lama
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#189036 - 07/13/10 10:33 AM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: starlight.2]
ghoti ghoti Member Registered: 04/06/02 Posts: 8469 Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255	And IMO that sort of diverity was exactly what the founders were trying to maintain when they wrote our constitution. If they had wanted the US to be a Christian nation it was certainly within their power to do so. They had all seen the abuses of state-sponored religion first hand, and IMO were determined to make sure it never happened in this country. _________________________ Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#189058 - 07/13/10 01:35 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: ghoti]
Paulwa_dup1 Paulwa_dup1 Member Registered: 02/12/05 Posts: 4951 Loc: Washington	Wonder why Moses and the ten commandments are sculpted so prominently in many of our capital buildings if they did not reverence the bible and hold it so high in their writings? I think you are all very wrong in your beliefs. I think you don't want the bible to be a true book and thus all your negativity towards the Lord Jesus and the bible. That is ok but I think you all are very biased and wrong in your thinking. Paul
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#189064 - 07/13/10 02:35 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
shakey56 shakey56 Member Registered: 03/31/04 Posts: 1889 Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...	lmfao...all credible evidence shows us to be right, and we are wrong in your eyes. You really ought to open those eyes to the rest of the world. This isn't abt the bible. It is abt a religiously free country which is exactly what was intended when this nation was created. _________________________ Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#189098 - 07/14/10 09:15 AM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
starlight.2 starlight.2 Member Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 793	Originally Posted By: Paulwa_dup1 Wonder why Moses and the ten commandments are sculpted so prominently in many of our capital buildings if they did not reverence the bible and hold it so high in their writings? paul, this has nothing to do with disrespecting the bible. the 10 commandments happen to be ONE cornerstone of western civilization - in addition to the ancient greeks, romans etc. Quote: I think you are all very wrong in your beliefs. I think you don't want the bible to be a true book and thus all your negativity towards the Lord Jesus and the bible. That is ok but I think you all are very biased and wrong in your thinking. Paul pot calling the kettle black, my friend. i'm rubber, you're glue nyah nyah nyah. _________________________ Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace. --Dalai Lama
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