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#188914 - 07/11/10 09:04 PM More proof of Founding Fathers Faith
Paulwa_dup1
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http://www.realanswers.net/foundingfathers/index.html

Looks as if a majority of them were christian beliievers..at least to me.
Paul

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#188931 - 07/12/10 11:29 AM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
shakey56
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lmao! Talk abt biased.
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#188932 - 07/12/10 11:36 AM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti
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Paulwa, the only credible evidence about these things comes from bona-fide historians who have no agenda other than finding the truth. When you use groups that have a Christian agenda as your information sources they simply can't be trusted to give factual information. By the same token, any atheist, Islamic, Mormon, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. organization is going to put their own slant on things and their views are not a credible source of truth about religious matters either.

All the genuine scholarly studies that I've seen regarding the religious views of the founding fathers say that while a majority may have been affiliated with various Christian churches, Deism and Unitarianism were the true beliefs of a large number of them. You've got to remember that these people had seen the abuses of a government-sponsored religion (the Church of England) and wanted to be certain that the US never fall into that trap.

Even those who favored the Christian faith themselves were determined that their new country stay absolutely neutral on religion, and that's why the constitution is very careful to make NO MENTION of any specific faith system.
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#188961 - 07/12/10 02:34 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: ghoti]
shakey56
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We all need to remember that for Paul christians have no agenda, and everybody else is terribly biased against the poor, persecuted Christian majority in this country.
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#188978 - 07/12/10 05:26 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: shakey56]
Paulwa_dup1
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That maybe true Ghotii but are you going to discredit the words of the fathers themselves who spoke of Jesus as their saviour?
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#188992 - 07/12/10 06:21 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti
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Paulwa, I know you won't read or believe them since I've posted them before, but there are many websites that list quotations from the Founding Fathers that prove that many had serious doubts about Christianity. Here are just a few:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/founding.html

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

http://www.anotherperspective.org/advoc550.html

http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?id=6177

http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/dispatch/fathers_quote2.htm

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html

IMO, the bottom line is that if they had intended this to be a Christian nation they could easily have done so. Why did they leave all mention of God and Jesus completely out of the constitution? Why not just write Christianity right into it?

The simple fact is that they didn't, and that speaks volumes as to their true intentions.
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#189016 - 07/12/10 09:22 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: ghoti]
Paulwa_dup1
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They didn't want to raise any doctrine to the level that it would be the state religion. They wanted all to be able to follow their hearts and they didn't want government interfering with individuals worship which they certainly are doing today. The Fathers would not have kicked the bible out of the schools because Congress had bibles printed for school use. They would have been flaberghasted at what government is doing to religion in the public forum today and what they are doing to the Ten Commandments and Christmas. The peo[ple trying to strip christian heritage out of our society has a very negative agenda going on.
I'll check those links out over a period of time and who is writing them and why.
Paul

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#189020 - 07/12/10 09:54 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
shakey56
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Paul, congress never had bibles printed for any use. This is another in the long list of Barton lies. They did validate the Aitken bible as accurate and allow him to print them since the lack of trade with England created a shortage.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-rodda/no-mr-beck-congress-did-n_b_598698.html
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#189021 - 07/12/10 10:07 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
ghoti
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If they had wanted Christianity, the Bible, the Ten Commandments, Jesus, etc. to be a routine part of our country they could have very easily done so. They started with a blank sheet of paper and our Constitution was the document they produced.

It has absolutely no mention of anything related to Christianity in any way, shape, or form. In fact, if you read the third paragraph of Article 6 of the Constitution you'll find these words:

Quote:
no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.


Why would that phrase be included in the Constitution if they intended for us to be a Christian nation?
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#189025 - 07/13/10 02:55 AM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
inkblister
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Originally Posted By: Paulwa_dup1
They would have been flaberghasted at what government is doing to religion in the public forum today and what they are doing to the Ten Commandments and Christmas. The peo[ple trying to strip christian heritage out of our society has a very negative agenda going on.


I very much doubt they would be "flaberghasted", I believe they would be much more concerned and dismayed about how the American christian community is forcing a their religious agenda into the government and the public at large...

They were living in a time when they witnessed the dangers, cruelty, and persecution of a theocratically influenced government first hand, which was why so many fled to here from England and other parts of Europe... They understood how religion (any religion, christian or otherwise) should have absolutly no place in governing how people live and that laws should be based on social equality rather than dogmatic decree...

As altruistic you would like to believe christianity is, I honestly believe that if the United States did base it's constitution and society on christian law, it would today be just as oppressive, intolerant, ignorant, manipulative, unstable, and dangerous as countries based on Islamic law (Iran, Yemen, Afganistan, Pakistan, etc.)... Just in a different, but familiar way... In fact, it and the world would probably be worse than we could even imagine as there more than likely would have been countless more wars and deaths purely based on "religious rightousness"...

It is the separation of church and state that allows U.S. policy to remain more reasoned and objective than most other countries... It is diversity in all forms that is America's greatest strength... If the founding fathers were as wise as you believe, then I believe they would be wise enough to recognize and be proud about how this country has grown, prospered, and matured without (or at least minimally with) the detramental influence of any dogmatic sway...


Edited by inkblister (07/13/10 03:34 AM)
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#189031 - 07/13/10 09:18 AM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: inkblister]
starlight.2
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Originally Posted By: inkblister
It is diversity in all forms that is America's greatest strength... If the founding fathers were as wise as you believe, then I believe they would be wise enough to recognize and be proud about how this country has grown, prospered, and matured without (or at least minimally with) the detramental influence of any dogmatic sway...


well said.
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#189036 - 07/13/10 10:33 AM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: starlight.2]
ghoti
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And IMO that sort of diverity was exactly what the founders were trying to maintain when they wrote our constitution. If they had wanted the US to be a Christian nation it was certainly within their power to do so.

They had all seen the abuses of state-sponored religion first hand, and IMO were determined to make sure it never happened in this country.
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#189058 - 07/13/10 01:35 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: ghoti]
Paulwa_dup1
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Wonder why Moses and the ten commandments are sculpted so prominently in many of our capital buildings if they did not reverence the bible and hold it so high in their writings? I think you are all very wrong in your beliefs. I think you don't want the bible to be a true book and thus all your negativity towards the Lord Jesus and the bible. That is ok but I think you all are very biased and wrong in your thinking.
Paul

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#189064 - 07/13/10 02:35 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
shakey56
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lmfao...all credible evidence shows us to be right, and we are wrong in your eyes. You really ought to open those eyes to the rest of the world.

This isn't abt the bible. It is abt a religiously free country which is exactly what was intended when this nation was created.
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#189098 - 07/14/10 09:15 AM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
starlight.2
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Originally Posted By: Paulwa_dup1
Wonder why Moses and the ten commandments are sculpted so prominently in many of our capital buildings if they did not reverence the bible and hold it so high in their writings?


paul, this has nothing to do with disrespecting the bible. the 10 commandments happen to be ONE cornerstone of western civilization - in addition to the ancient greeks, romans etc.

Quote:
I think you are all very wrong in your beliefs. I think you don't want the bible to be a true book and thus all your negativity towards the Lord Jesus and the bible. That is ok but I think you all are very biased and wrong in your thinking.
Paul


pot calling the kettle black, my friend.

i'm rubber, you're glue nyah nyah nyah.
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#189151 - 07/14/10 04:06 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
inkblister
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Originally Posted By: Paulwa_dup1
Wonder why Moses and the ten commandments are sculpted so prominently in many of our capital buildings if they did not reverence the bible and hold it so high in their writings?


Which capital buildings would those be?... There are several 10 commandment monuments on the grounds of some state capitals, which were donated by private funds, but none in or on the buildings themselves (as far as I have found) as it would violate the separation of church and state...

As far as the depiction of Moses, he is portraied(sp?) alongside Confucius, and Solon, and only appears on the Supreme Court building not the Capitol... These three were chosen as their roles as lawgivers, not religious ones... in addition, the tablets Moses holds in the sculpture are blank, intentionally...

Besides, aren't the 10 Commandments in the Old Testament?... I have always been taught that the OT only applied to the Jews and is not considered a part of christian doctrine or teachings...

Religious Symbols in the U.S. National Capitol

Originally Posted By: Paulwa_dup1
I think you don't want the bible to be a true book and thus all your negativity towards the Lord Jesus and the bible.


I happen to have a very high respect for the bible and it's teachings (although I do disagree with many parts of it, I do recognize and revere it as a sacred and holy text for much of the world)... As I have stated before, my issues are not with christianity or the bible itself, but with those christians (extremeists and fundametalists) who consistantly twist, pervert, and then wield it's passages in abusive and judgemetal practices to justify their own selfish means and ends, and myopic shortcomings...


Edited by inkblister (07/14/10 04:09 PM)
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#189154 - 07/14/10 04:22 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: inkblister]
ghoti
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The claim that our laws are based on the Ten Commandments keeps being repeated by fundies, so here's a response that I posted a few years back:

Quote:
What if we actually wrote all 10 of the commandments into our laws?


ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

We'd have to throw out the First Amendment and the whole concept of freedom of religion.


TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a graven image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

Wouldn't this make all art, photography, TV, movies, etc. illegal?


THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

The jails would be filled to overflowing if we tried to enforce this one.


FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

No more Sunday football games. Would we arrest people who just goofed off all day Sunday instead of keeping the day "holy"?


FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

Nice thought, but I know a lot of people who treat their kids like crap. Do they deserve to be honored? What about honoring your children? How do you enforce a law like this?


SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

This one is already pretty much covered, but we make exceptions for things like self-defense, wars, and executions.


SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

Yikes - if this was written into our laws the prisons would be bulging even more.


EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

Already covered quite nicely by the laws of pretty much every nation that has ever existed.


NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

Do we start arresting people for bad-mouthing others and gossiping? Doesn't this run the danger of interfering with the concept of freedom of speech?


TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

Isn't one of the basic concepts of capitalism that you see the neat stuff others have and want to get some for yourself? Advertising is all about creating demand by making us want to "covet" things. If this were written into law our whole society would have to change.
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#189157 - 07/14/10 04:28 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: ghoti]
Paulwa_dup1
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I have seen scads of sculpture and paintings in the buildings of DC but don't remember where exactly but I think they can be found in the Whitehouse and Congress buildings.
Iam totally tired of all these arguments period. Argue amongst yourselves I'm through.
Paul

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#189178 - 07/14/10 05:16 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paulwa_dup1]
inkblister
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Really!?... I'm shocked... (insert sarcasm here)
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#189191 - 07/14/10 06:01 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: inkblister]
Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
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I'd rather keep friends or hopes of friends than to argue politics and religions and alienate everyone. Around here there are all kinds of interesting forms of religion and most people here seem to be very liberal politically. What I say seems to inflame too many people. So for the most part I will just talk about other things since most don't agree with my beliefs.
No problem here.
Paul

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#189585 - 07/19/10 06:19 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: inkblister]
Paul I
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If the founding fathers are exemplary do we also consider that the

pre-constitutional meetings they had were accompanied by liberal quantities of intoxicating beverages and one farmer who had 40-50
acres of hemp also also made his contribution to the levity of the
process. There were a lot of pipe smokers were there not?
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#189587 - 07/19/10 06:28 PM Re: More proof of Founding Fathers Faith [Re: Paul I]
Paulwa_dup1
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I have no doubts of that Paul. I imagine they werre werll aware of the free intoxicants to be gathered and smoked as needed totally free.
Paul


Edited by Paulwa_dup1 (07/19/10 06:30 PM)

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