#188421 - 06/30/10 10:00 AM
Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
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starlight.2
Member
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 793
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how ironic is this, indeed.
Atheists' Billboard Vandalized
By Jingwen Zhang Charlotte : NC : USA | Jun 29, 2010
One nation, indivisible," the billboard used to read.
This is one of the ads for Charlotte, N.C.'s atheist associations. Those familiar with the Pledge of Allegiance can observe that the line on the billboard comes right before the phrase "under God", which is what some upset vandals sprayed beneath the line on the board.
Unfortunately for the atheist community, the billboard won't be able to be replaced until after July 4th.
The billboard was put up a week ago on Billy Graham Parkway. Billy Graham is a famous evangelical preacher in North Carolina. Charlotte Atheists & Agnostics spokesman William Warren said that the billboards (there were more erected elsewhere, not just the defaced one) were a means of advertising for their group, but claimed that the rather meaningful location of the sign definitely was not, in any way, a jab toward Reverend Graham.
http://www.allvoices.com/s/event-6193539...lNTPWJyZWFraW5n
_________________________
Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.
--Dalai Lama
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#188424 - 06/30/10 10:38 AM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: starlight.2]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Sad but predictable.
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#188477 - 06/30/10 08:48 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: ghoti]
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shakey56
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Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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What's even more predictable is few if any Christians will condemn this, but many would scream discrimination or worse if this were a Christian message being desecrated.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188529 - 07/02/10 01:34 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Human nature that whoevers finger is hit with the hammer will scream the loudest. Simple and very understsandable, Shakey.
Paul
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#188537 - 07/02/10 03:48 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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lol...so you condone vandalism by your fellow believers? how do you feel abt murder, that ok too?
The problem is the silence from the Christian community. As I said in another thread: Even if the majority are on the path toward the good, that goodness is diminished by the minority doing bad when majority allows it by their silence. If it's wrong when done to you, it is just as wrong when done to others.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188540 - 07/02/10 05:14 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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It's a cat & dog type deal. Even if the atheists didn't put it in that location to take a jab at the religious in the area, that's how it was taken.
I actually prefer the phrase "One nation, indivisible". It makes me feel stronger as a nation of people.
Even though my parents were strong Christians, they'd learned the pledge without 'under God' in place and knew it shouldn't be there.
As far as it being too bad that the billboard won't be replaced until after the 4th, if the group wants publicity, I'm betting it will get much more with the graffiti in place.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#188542 - 07/02/10 05:53 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: flicka]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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So that excuses the criminal behavior?
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188543 - 07/02/10 06:13 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Nope. It's not acceptable.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#188556 - 07/02/10 08:01 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I said the pledge of allegiance most of my life without the added 'under God' in it. I think when it was added I wondered why it was even needed because at that time I thought everyone was a christian and believed in God. It came as a shock later to find some people did not even believe in God, much less His Son who died for the sins of the world! Very sad I think, but I am living with it.
Paul
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#188568 - 07/03/10 11:55 AM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: starlight.2]
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starlight.2
Member
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 793
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Defaced 'atheist' billboard is repaired
By Tim Funk
Posted: Thursday, Jul. 01, 2010
It took a few days for them to get to the job. But, once in position Thursday morning, a crew from Lamar billboard company quickly replaced a defaced sign that had been put up along Billy Graham Parkway by the N.C. Secular Association, a state coalition of atheist, agnostic and free thinker groups.
The crew folded a new vinyl onto the billboard space that reads "One Nation Indivisible." That's the original phrase in the Pledge of Allegiance, written in 1892, before the words "under God" were added after "one nation" by an act of Congress in 1954.
full text: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/07...l#ixzz0sdvL9Wjq
_________________________
Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.
--Dalai Lama
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#188570 - 07/03/10 12:13 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: starlight.2]
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Paul I
Member
Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 7913
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Sooner or later the religious issues in this country must be dealt with. It's smoldering beneath the surface out in society because of political correctness. I see a lot of commonalities
between some protestant denominations and some Islamic groups insofar as being intolerant of others beliefs and filled with self-righteousness. If you think that religion and politics are not connected you are in dreamland yet it's not politically correct to talk about it openly.
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"...only the shadow knows"
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#188572 - 07/03/10 01:26 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paul I]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I think it all started one day when Israel decided they did not want God to guide them directly because they feared His awesome power (I think) so they asked for a King to be over them. God said they might be sorry (best I recall of those scriptures)but He granted them their request and Saul became Israels first King and politics was born and was to become man's dread of those who govern us badly.
Paul
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#188579 - 07/03/10 04:32 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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I, for one, dread religion far more than politics.
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188580 - 07/03/10 04:42 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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If you are an atheist, that you should..fear religion..eternity
Paul
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#188581 - 07/03/10 04:47 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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As should you since the chances of your choice for a God being correct are very small indeed.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188584 - 07/03/10 05:37 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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:-)
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#188599 - 07/04/10 06:20 AM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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As should you since the chances of your choice for a God being correct are very small indeed.
I believe Shakey you, like many of us, are searching for a better understanding of the place "God" has in each of our lives. Paulwa is a perversion of how Christain believe can turn people into bigotted zealots. You see the same thing when you look at how extreme Islamists pervert Muslim beleifs.
Don't let the likes of Paulwa divert you from your search for a better understanding of faith and "God".
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#188604 - 07/04/10 07:59 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Greg]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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No Greg. While I agree Paul is a perversion, I have no need for a God and far less for religion. I don't consider myself to be an atheist. I just don't know if there is a God. However, I do know I have no need for one. Thus, God has no place in my life.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188606 - 07/04/10 09:38 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Why are you even intersted in this forum, Shakey? This forum is a discussion of God and His relationship with mankind. I notice a great many of un godly minded people like to hang out around religious forums...mayb just waiting for some very understanding person will come along and give them an explanation they can believe in, That is what I think.
Paul
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#188607 - 07/05/10 01:19 AM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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The "under God" part was only added to the pldege during the McCarthy communist scare era. It was naively thought that the Godless communists could be rooted out by watching them since they'd refuse to say "under God".
It was a very typical bit of completely bogus reverse logic - communists don't believe in God so therefore everyone who doesn't believe in God must a communist. It's completely insulting to loyal Americans who don't believe in God and should never have been inserted into the pledge in the first place.
Edited by ghoti (07/05/10 01:24 AM)
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#188610 - 07/05/10 12:10 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: ghoti]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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Paul, delusional ppl amuse me 
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188611 - 07/05/10 12:28 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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starlight.2
Member
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 793
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Why are you even intersted in this forum, Shakey? This forum is a discussion of God and His relationship with mankind.
actually, you're the one who's off-topic in this thread...
_________________________
Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.
--Dalai Lama
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#188630 - 07/06/10 10:02 AM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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Paul, delusional ppl amuse me
You stomped him good Shakey. Does it feel good?
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#188634 - 07/06/10 12:58 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Greg]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Stomped but still standing, boot boys!! Stomp away!
Paul (and Wabi)
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#188636 - 07/06/10 01:04 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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lol @ Greg. bait not taken.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188639 - 07/06/10 02:36 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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This forum is a discussion of God and His relationship with mankind.
You could not be more beyond WRONG Paulwa (as usual)... This forum is called "Faith and Religion", this includes all beliefs... Even those that have no god or many... Zen has no god, Hindu has hundreds, Native American has many... Atheism may not technically be a religion, but it still requires faith and is "spiritual", but just in a different sense...
Why is it that whenever anyone brings up the word "religion" and "faith" that christians automatically assume it pertains only to them?... It's as if they seem to think that they own the copyright to those words and are the only ones allowed to use them... It's arrogant and self delusional...
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I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#188641 - 07/06/10 02:58 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: inkblister]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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You are right inkblister. Sorry.
Paul
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#188642 - 07/06/10 03:04 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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No problem Paulwa... A dash of humility and modesty looks good on you, you should wear it more often... (and I mean that in a sincere and good way)...
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#188644 - 07/06/10 04:43 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: inkblister]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Atheism may not technically be a religion, but it still requires faith and is "spiritual", but just in a different sense...
I've had atheists tell me differently...that it is simply logical and requires no faith at all.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#188645 - 07/06/10 05:05 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: flicka]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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I guess it depends on your perspective... In this instance, I interpreted "Faith" as "Trust" so that Paulwa might be able to understand it from a different point of view... Atheists place their "trust" in logic, reasoning, and science... So in a sense Atheism is having "faith" in science and research to explain questions and ponderences about the universe and our existance, if not in the present then eventually in the future...
I guess I should have added my usual caveat of "But then again, I could be wrong..."... But I assumed it went without saying... sorry for any confusion...
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I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#188648 - 07/06/10 06:57 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: inkblister]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Yep, it's all ones perspective. Interesting that you mention your interpretation of faith (in this instance). That is another discussion I enjoy!
I view faith & trust as completely different creatures. I use 'trust' when talking about known things and 'faith' for unknown things. For example, when I am driving bumper-to-bumper at 65mph, I trust my ability to drive, but I only have faith in the other drivers' abilities.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#188652 - 07/06/10 07:38 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Good one Flicka, I have to agree although I fully understand inkblisters comments, I think.
But when it comes to evolution I think believing that requires all the components of religion..at least in the faith end of it. But it is not something I choose to argue about anymore. Doesn't mean anything to me what people believe but teaching it to the youth as pure scientific truth is totally wrong in my book.
Paul
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#188653 - 07/06/10 07:44 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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lol...if you don't wanna argue abt it, don't throw out ignorant statements like that. Evolution is scientific fact to any thinking person. It requires no leap of faith.
Edited by shakey56 (07/06/10 07:44 PM)
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188655 - 07/06/10 07:57 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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It is a total fallacy to this thinking msan. In my opinion only a fool says in his heart there is no God who created all of this we see and live in..no! That is the bibles opinion..but we know there are no fools around here only the sadly misinformed. :-)Paul
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#188656 - 07/06/10 08:39 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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I don't think believing in evolution negates a creator, or God.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#188657 - 07/06/10 10:49 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: flicka]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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It's easy to have trust in the findings of science since it has produced so many clearly visible results that are all around us. Science is also self-correcting in that ideas that don't produce testable results are quickly discarded and replaced with ideas that do.
If religion embraced the concept of eliminating ideas that don't produce testable results nearly all present-day religious dogma and ritual would have been thrown out centuries ago. Faith and belief are the only things that keep most religions alive.
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#188658 - 07/06/10 11:21 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Just all in the way People view things I guess. Flicka I think evolution violates the scriptures on creation..but many are able to wedge ervolution in to help God with this, I guess.
Paul
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#188667 - 07/07/10 10:13 AM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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The only conflict between evolution and the Bible is if you insist on interpreting the word "day" in Genesis as our normal 24 hour day. IMO that makes no sense at all since according to Genesis the earth itself wasn't created until day 3 and the sun, moon, and stars were created on day 4, animals on day 5, and people on day 6.
A day is the time it takes for the earth to make one rotation on its axis, and we observe it by watching the position of the sun change in the sky. How could there have been days before the earth and sun even existed?
If you're willing to accept that the word "day" in Genesis just means some unspecified length of time (maybe many millions of years by our time scale) then Genesis isn't really out of sync with evolution at all. Genesis says that plants came first, then animals, and finally people. That's exactly the same sequence that evolution says it happened.
So the only real dispute comes down to the time scale. If you insist that "day" in Genesis literally means 24 hours then evolution simply doesn't work that fast. But if you're willing to accept that the word "day" could mean millions of years then evolution fits neatly in with Genesis.
IMO most educated religious people manage to believe in the Bible while still accepting the fact of evolution by just not obsessing over a narrow interpretation of what the word "day" in Genesis really means. All the fighting about it is just a matter of semantics.
Edited by ghoti (07/07/10 10:14 AM)
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#188671 - 07/07/10 11:59 AM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I used to believe that way but no longer believe in evolution..too many facts against it but I can understand others holding it to be what happened. No problem.
Paul
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#188674 - 07/07/10 12:25 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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I used to believe that way but no longer believe in evolution..too many facts against it but I can understand others holding it to be what happened. No problem.
Paul
"too many facts"?
LOL
go objective when it suits your position, right?
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#188675 - 07/07/10 01:14 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Greg]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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Paul's wouldn't know facts unless one of his sources showed them to him. Only those highly suspect sources have any validity in his mind, and anything contrary is biased bunk. If anyone knows biased bunk, it's Paul. Problem is he calls it fact from his trusted sources.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188677 - 07/07/10 01:39 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: ghoti]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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The only conflict between evolution and the Bible is if you insist on interpreting the word "day" in Genesis as our normal 24 hour day.
Absolutely.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#188678 - 07/07/10 01:40 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Shakey you are just describing the way I see you and people who believe like you do. I seriously think there is no way to change these view points. Stalemate, till truth finally sets us all aright.
Paul
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#188682 - 07/07/10 02:01 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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Stalemate, till truth finally sets us all aright.
Paul
Just curious, by truth do you mean that which can be derived from proven and accepted evidence and reasoned evaluation? Or by truth are you referring to when God reveals to us "the rest of the story"?
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#188685 - 07/07/10 02:13 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Greg]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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accepted evidence and reasoned evaluation not acceptable..proven scientific evidence is acceptable or my choice, when God reveals it all to us, is the other choice. Either way we will get the truth or the other possibility..oblivian..in which case truth will not matter.
Paul
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#188688 - 07/07/10 02:22 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Either way we will get the truth or the other possibility..oblivian..in which case truth will not matter.
It may not matter, but it will still be the truth.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#188690 - 07/07/10 02:34 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Yep!
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#188696 - 07/07/10 03:16 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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accepted evidence and reasoned evaluation not acceptable..proven scientific evidence is acceptable or my choice, when God reveals it all to us, is the other choice. Either way we will get the truth or the other possibility..oblivian..in which case truth will not matter.
Paul
lol...yet you reject proven scientific evidence when it goes against your beliefs.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188697 - 07/07/10 03:21 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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soda
Member
Registered: 08/26/07
Posts: 4726
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No Greg. While I agree Paul is a perversion, I have no need for a God and far less for religion. I don't consider myself to be an atheist. I just don't know if there is a God. However, I do know I have no need for one. Thus, God has no place in my life.
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 67.87.81.12
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#188698 - 07/07/10 04:22 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: soda]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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What proven scientific evidence have I rejected, Shakey?
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#188701 - 07/07/10 04:32 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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Anything to support evolution.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188702 - 07/07/10 04:37 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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No because I don't consider evolution a legitimate science and never will. I think there are more high power scientists dropping away from evolution hypothesis by the day. Sorry this is just the way I see it and untill it is defianately proven with hard evidencial facts I will not change.
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#188708 - 07/07/10 05:21 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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Hell's bells, God his own damn self could tell you evolution is a fact, and you'd call him a liar.
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188715 - 07/07/10 06:58 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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No because I don't consider evolution a legitimate science and never will. I think there are more high power scientists dropping away from evolution hypothesis by the day. Sorry this is just the way I see it and untill it is defianately proven with hard evidencial facts I will not change.
Which scientists?... Can you please provide a list of names?...
Okay, so you you will never change your position unless proven with evidence that you will never look at?... WTF...
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I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#188740 - 07/08/10 12:38 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: inkblister]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I pretty much keep a watch on what the evolutionist find and say when I see it, inkblister.But I am not a scientist and not a lot comes down the pike for us common folk. I think Lucy may have been the last info I have seen and as far as I know the truth about her is still forming.
Just a thought, what physical size would a creator have to be to form our universes? But then the Holy Word says He spoke them into existance and that God is a spirit and that He created all through His son Jesus.
And where did all of the material of existance come from. What if there were no material, then what would existance be? What would it be like if there were absolutely nothing anywhere? OK so where did all matter come from? How can there be eternal existance? We only know time, a beginning and ending...what if there were no time. I think all this is too far beyond my understanding and best left to God to explain.
Paul
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#188743 - 07/08/10 01:13 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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DAMN! Paul oughta be a politician...lol Diverted the question and reinforced his message all in one paragraph.
Just a thought....God is one of the most egotistical of all of man's creations. Why are we so reluctant to allow nature to be the creator? Could it be that it would take us out of the picture? Look at all origin myths. Some sentient being is almost always involved. We just have too much ego to face the truth.
Edited by shakey56 (07/08/10 01:13 PM)
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188749 - 07/08/10 02:00 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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I pretty much keep a watch on what the evolutionist find and say when I see it, inkblister.But I am not a scientist and not a lot comes down the pike for us common folk. I think Lucy may have been the last info I have seen and as far as I know the truth about her is still forming.
Just a thought, what physical size would a creator have to be to form our universes? But then the Holy Word says He spoke them into existance and that God is a spirit and that He created all through His son Jesus.
And where did all of the material of existance come from. What if there were no material, then what would existance be? What would it be like if there were absolutely nothing anywhere? OK so where did all matter come from? How can there be eternal existance? We only know time, a beginning and ending...what if there were no time. I think all this is too far beyond my understanding and best left to God to explain.
Paul
So if "not a lot comes down the pike for us common folk" then where are you getting your information?... You don't have to be a scientist to find a list or at the very least a link... I'm just curious as to the source of your supposition...
As for as the source of all this matter that makes up the physical world, there is the "Big Bang" theory, String theory, M theory, etc... Check out Einstein, Hawking, Witten, Veneziano, etc... Oh wait, that would require reading, research, and reasoning... I guess it's just easier to use faith and scream while plugging your ears and closing your eyes... After all, ignorance is bliss huh?...
If you believe god delivered his teachings through man to write the bible, how do you know that maybe god is not also speaking through those afore mentioned thinkers to explain the universe?... Or does god not speak through man anymore (unless they have a church and appearantly need money/donations)?... What if when you die and there is a god and you ask him for all the answers and he replies, "I did, you just didn't bother to listen to or read it"?... Knowledge is power my friend, and the more you speak, the more useless you are coming across... You are waaaaaaaaayyy out of your depth in this subject buddy...
Edited by inkblister (07/08/10 02:09 PM)
_________________________
I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#188766 - 07/08/10 08:12 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: inkblister]
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Deo
Member
Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 127
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Dr. Eugenie Scott gives one of the best lectures I've seen so far on this topic. Great series if you have the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEnFJTgr9x4
Deo
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#188767 - 07/08/10 08:54 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Deo]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I think that is just what I explained, inkblister. Those were questions not answers my friend. You are right I do gather most of my information from christian scientists. Why would I select any other scientist who has agenda to denigrate the creator? After all you don't spend much time with christian scientists and their enlightenment I would think.
Paul
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#188768 - 07/08/10 09:28 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Spent about a half hour Deo, but think she needs to cut to the chase. A two hour lecture and her logic didn't really do to much for me.
Probly will never know how gresat all that was because like you say I don't have that much time to listen to it all.
Paul
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#188771 - 07/08/10 11:52 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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I think that is just what I explained, inkblister. Those were questions not answers my friend. You are right I do gather most of my information from christian scientists. Why would I select any other scientist who has agenda to denigrate the creator? After all you don't spend much time with christian scientists and their enlightenment I would think.
Paul
You didn't explain anything... How does any other scientist "denigrate the creator"?... What is their agenda besides finding the truth about the universe?... There are many scientists that are christians, but still subscribe to hard science... Just because they don't mention god doesn't mean they are insulting god... That's like saying one hates literature because they haven't read Stephen King...
Despite what you may think and unlike you, I am willing to consider all views and opinions when seeking answers... I have looked at "christian science" (what little of it there is as these "scientists" are the extreme minority, and no wonder) on several occasions for a different point of view (on creationism, "intelligent design"/biology, archeology, anthropology, etc.) , and it just never seems to work... From what I've observed, "christian science" always tends to work backwards, starting with an answer, then forming the theory, and then force fitting and cherry picking insular data to fit the answer... Whenever they run into a roadblock or counter evidence they always resort to "because god works in mysterious ways" clause to fill in the gaps... The results are consistantly shoddy and flimsy at best and tend to be easily disproved...
I find it odd how say you have no time to consider another perspective, yet have plenty of time to constantly regurgitate your "christian" beliefs, spread political misinformation and practice religious slander all over the forums...
And you still haven't answered my question as to which scientists (of the supposed many) have abandoned evolution in favor of creationism... Even just a few will do as I would like to see their line of reasoning for this change... Just one cannot do as it can easily be dimissed as an abberation... The more you can provide, the more it would back up your arguement as this being a trend... (see?... this is how science and research works)...
-------------------
Deo-
Thanks for the link... I've seen a few of these lectures and others by Dr. Scott... He is a great speaker...
Edited by inkblister (07/09/10 12:06 AM)
_________________________
I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#188783 - 07/09/10 09:51 AM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Deo
Member
Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 127
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Paulwa Sorry to have you endure that, but she presents as an anthropologist and defines religion as "a set of rules and beliefs a people have about a non material reality".
On the subject of creation and evolution beliefs range from flat earthers-geocentrist-young earthers-old earthers-theistic evolutionist-materialist. It would appear that most of humanity are theistic evolutionist but this pecular creation/evolution issue seems to be an American thing.
Anyway the practice of religion and science are cultural things that human beings do. In my case I am a student of science and tend to look at things from this standpoint. Everybody is different.
Good grief: didn't mean to fuddle things up or deviate from the thread. Deo
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#188788 - 07/09/10 12:05 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Deo]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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no worries Deo... Happens all the time..
_________________________
I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#188791 - 07/09/10 02:07 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: inkblister]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I believe what I believe and am beginning to care less and less what everyone else believes.
Paul
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#188793 - 07/09/10 02:36 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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And as long as you recognize and state that it is solely your BELIEF and don't try to present these things as if they were proven facts, people would be far less critical of you.
Edited by ghoti (07/09/10 02:37 PM)
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#188805 - 07/09/10 03:50 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Paulwa, have you ever read, or watched, Stephen Hawkings' work? If so, what do you think of his theories?
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#188809 - 07/09/10 05:27 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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I believe what I believe even tho it's batshit crazy and am beginning to care less and less what everyone else believes, cuz my delusions are easily shaken, and that scares me.
Paul
fixed it for ya
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188811 - 07/09/10 05:59 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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LOL Shakey... Awesome... 
_________________________
I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#188812 - 07/09/10 06:03 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Yes I have watched a couple of Hawkings video lectures. I haven't made up my mind as to what he exactly believes but he is a very smart scientist. It is amazing at his accomplishments considering his disabilities although those disabilities may allow him to focus harder on his theretical work than it would for an able bodied person but only he could answer that.
I have a video concerning the Shroud of turin and it is drawing many theoretical scientists to bringing about new physics and tying the micro into the macro in new studies. There may be new answers coming up soon in theoretical physics.
Paul
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#188825 - 07/09/10 07:16 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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you mean the shroud that was dated to more than a thousand year after jesus bit the dust?
get some new material already!
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188826 - 07/09/10 07:23 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I should have guessed at how out of date you are.
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#188827 - 07/09/10 07:34 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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lol...you would know being out of date. until your so called scientists can present credible evidence which they have yet to do on any front the shroud is just another hoax perpetrated by fanatics.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188828 - 07/09/10 07:39 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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You shouldn't take your head out of the sand just to answer me, Shakey..too much oxygen can be toxic for those not used to it.:-)
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#188829 - 07/09/10 07:44 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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Wise words. You would do well to follow them.
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188830 - 07/09/10 07:48 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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Heed your own advice Paulwa, only you have to pull your head out of your ass...
From what I understand, the church is no longer allowing any further study of the shroud for fear of revealing it as the hoax that it is... As it was discovered when it was last studied...
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I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#188833 - 07/09/10 07:58 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: inkblister]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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You haven't heard about the last study or you wouldn't be talking stupid.
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#188834 - 07/09/10 08:06 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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Yeahhhhhhhh... Riiiiiiiiiiight...
_________________________
I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#188836 - 07/09/10 11:03 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: inkblister]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Your data is old, inkblister. Your posts have been very atagonistic lately so if I cause you all this much tenson it would be better to avod posting to each other, maybe.
Paul
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#188837 - 07/10/10 12:34 AM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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Nah... Just havin' some fun...
;p
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I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#188840 - 07/10/10 05:41 AM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: inkblister]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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You are not.
If you and several others weren't so nasty and fixated on paulwa's posts you might be able to have a decent discussion or debate with ghoti cus I know from reading he's made a whole pack of blundering false statements around the forum(s). but........too bad its such a neurotic mess of a board.
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#188849 - 07/10/10 10:59 AM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: ævory]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Care to make a listing of my "whole pack of blundering false statements" so I can explain them to you, Ronda, or is your paranoia just causing you to make things up as you go (as usual).
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#188853 - 07/10/10 01:23 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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You haven't heard about the last study or you wouldn't be talking stupid.
Which study, or is this like your phantom scientists moving away from evolution?
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188854 - 07/10/10 01:25 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Sheesh I think all these summer high temps are elevating our tempers!!
I refuse to argue as it is a hateful and useless activity.
Paul
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#188857 - 07/10/10 01:56 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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What a fraud! lol What you refuse to do is provide supporting documentation for your claims. What's really hateful is perpetrating lies.
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188858 - 07/10/10 01:56 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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I refuse to argue as it is a hateful and useless activity.
Why not just point out the new study and what it says?
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#188859 - 07/10/10 01:57 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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I refuse to argue as it is a hateful and useless activity.
Paul
LMAO
Don't sell yourself short Paul, your inflamatory remarks, nasty personal attacks and religous intolerance put you right up there with the best.
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#188864 - 07/10/10 03:42 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: ævory]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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You are not.
If you and several others weren't so nasty and fixated on paulwa's posts you might be able to have a decent discussion or debate with ghoti cus I know from reading he's made a whole pack of blundering false statements around the forum(s). but........too bad its such a neurotic mess of a board.
If you bothered to look back, you might realize that I (or we depending on who you wish to include) are just asking questions and asking Paulwa where he's getting his information from to back up his arguements so we can look it up for ourselves... If he is able to answer the questions so his data can be confirmed or denied and then it would be a discussion or debate, but instead he would rather throw out some vague reference or speculation that holds no weight... If he wants to be taken seriously then he should be able to put his money where his mouth is and provide the proof... Otherwise his tradition of painting himself into corners and then giving up will contiue...
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But Paulwa, hateful and useless activities are your specialities... How else would you spend your time online?...
Edited by inkblister (07/10/10 03:48 PM)
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I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#188876 - 07/10/10 07:30 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: inkblister]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I'll have to think on it for a while.
The information on the Shroud and its investigation is from video..The Fabric of Time..ISBN 1-933424-46-X.. Partially based on books following
The Shroud of Turin by Ian Wilson..Doubleday
The Blood and the Shroud by Ian Wilson..(Orion Publishing Group)
The Shroud of Turin: An adventure of discovrery by Mary & Alan Whanger (Providence House)
Video is Grizzly Adams Productions, inc. in association with Spiritual Lens LLC presents
The video lists names of speakers and scientists as they occur in the video.
Best info I have at the moment.
Paul
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#188887 - 07/11/10 08:20 AM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Deo
Member
Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 127
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Hi Paulwa,
Studies should be "peer reviewed". I looked at the catalogue and the dvd's there are meant to be thought provoking but are certainly not studies. Claims made in other dvd's such as " eyewitness sightings of the Ark" have been proven to be fake.
Anyway, my brother you don't need affirmation of the shroud or the ark to strengthen you faith.
Deo
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#188895 - 07/11/10 03:49 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Deo]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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You should hear what various theoretical physicists are saying about the shroud of late. They have discovered some fabulous information that is impossible to exist by natural means andmay open newways to approach science.
No, the shroud and such do nothing to affect my faith but if what have seen and heard I believe it is the authentic burial cloths of Jesus.
Paul
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#188910 - 07/11/10 07:49 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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inkblister
Member
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Land of Debris...
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Thanks for anwering the question Paulwa... I will try to remember to peruse through some of what you have listed the next time I go to the library... Anyway, the last study I was aware of was 2004, but it was in passing and the shroud isn't really near the top of my interests list anyway... Did take a quick peek at what I could find on the net of more recent studies and most of it seems to be quibbeling about the shroud being "contaminated" during a study in 1988...
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I'm not outnumbered... I have a wide target selection...
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#188912 - 07/11/10 08:41 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: inkblister]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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The carbon 14 test was accurarate I think but the cloth it was performed on was a section of the shroud that had been repaired by invisable weaving. Several scientists have confirmed that, that material is of a later date than the original shroud material. Some scientists believe the data on the image surface ties in to theoretical physics of the micro and macro relativity and may open up new scientific vista's on the beginning of our universe such as black holes? A scientist figuresd that the forming of the image could only have occured by the body rising to a central plane between the top and bottom cloths (which had been pulled totally taut top and bottom and perfectly flat) the body not touching either top or bottom. They still have no idea what formed the image on the cloth. The image is only found on the surface fibrils of the threads. The image has a 3D component not found in normal 2 dimensional images. There are flower images on the shroud but they are only 2 D. The face was blown up in size and it was discovered that the mans eyes were covered by coins. The one they can read over the right eye has letters on its edge and a shepherds crook. It is the coin known as the widows mite and was used exclusvely in Jerusalem in 27-29AD. These are some of the things I remember that was talked about by scientists in the video.
Paul
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#188933 - 07/12/10 11:56 AM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Any video or report about the shroud or anything else that's produced by a religious group is going to be slanted to serve their agenda. The whole truth about the shroud could easily be determined by just allowing several groups of credible and neutral scientists from around the world to study it. That could easily be done without doing any damage to it at all.
The church has announced that no further study of the shroud will be permitted again ever. That means they don't want to know the real truth, which seems very suspicious to me.
So from now on those people who choose to believe the shroud is genuine will go on believing and we will never know the real truth.
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#188935 - 07/12/10 12:08 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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There is still some material from the shroud available for testing. One scientist said there are burned edges that could be carbon 14 tested without harming the shroud. I don't think the shroud will be completely withdrawn from testing. But any testng will have to be done where the shroud is kept. You need to watch the video and hear what the scientists are saying about it, Ghoti before putting the whole thing down to phoney status. Hundreds of scientists have spent thousands of hours studying this piece of material with a few who have made their minds up that it is totally phoney. I think most of them are atheist and have an agenda also.
Paul
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#188942 - 07/12/10 12:31 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Paulwa, I've seen several programs about the shroud aired on either the Discovery or History channels and I've also read many articles about it. Most of what you're talking about has been thoroughly discussed but it's largely speculation since the shroud has been withdrawn from any further examination.
The only true blind scientific studies of the shroud for dating purposes showed that it was made during Medieval times. The notion that the samples they tested came from repairs rather than the original fabric is strictly a supposition that could easily be proven if more samples from other parts of the shroud were tested.
That is never going to happen now since the shroud has been withdrawn forever from any further study or testing. Why did they do that if they seriously want to know the truth about it?
IMO the church doesn't want to know whether the shroud is genuine or not, otherwise they'd make it available and we'd know the truth.
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#188944 - 07/12/10 12:40 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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From what I have heard scentists say the carbon 14 dating has been refuted because they have proven it was done on a peice of much later manufacture, I guess you have determined that this is not valid and that the scientist who have proven this fact don't know what they are doing.
Paul
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#188948 - 07/12/10 01:11 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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Nothing has been proven other than the first sample being from the middle ages. As ghoti said the church doesn't want to know.
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#188956 - 07/12/10 01:48 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: shakey56]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Exactly. The carbon-14 dating was done by several different independent labs on samples from different locations. That testing showed all the samples tested were from the middle ages.
It has been SPECULATED (but not proven) that the samples tested just happened to all come from repairs that were made during the middle ages. If that were true, then the fabric in actual main part of shroud might be much older.
The church could resolve the issue very simply by just allowing more samples from different parts of the shroud to be tested, but they are refusing to allow that to be done. That seems mighty suspicious to me.
When someone deliberately withholds evidence that could prove their case one way or the other, you've got to wonder why.
Edited by ghoti (07/12/10 01:51 PM)
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#188959 - 07/12/10 02:12 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: ghoti]
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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The church could resolve the issue very simply by just allowing more samples from different parts of the shroud to be tested
Whose to say more testing hasn't been done?
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#188960 - 07/12/10 02:30 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Greg]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Do you have a link to any?
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#188979 - 07/12/10 05:31 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Some scientists are in talks with the vatican to obtaiin tiny samples from the burned edges of the original materal for carbon 14 testing. It wouldn't harm the shroud to do that and I look for them to allow that in the future.
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#189022 - 07/12/10 10:15 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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If they do, it would be very interesting to see the outcome. My understanding is that the Vatican has ordered that no examinations of the shroud will ever be permitted again, so I doubt we'll see that happen.
Why don't they just let it be examined by several neutral teams of scientists so the whole thing can be resolved once and for all?
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#189060 - 07/13/10 01:46 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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There have been many atheist scientists who have examined the shroud and you can guess what their views were of the findings.
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#189082 - 07/13/10 10:57 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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So everyone who comes up with results that you disagree with is part of some atheist conspiracy? Do you realize how paranoid and ignorant of the workings of science that sounds?
True science is totally neutral toward religion and truth is the only agenda. If one group tries to publish falsified data it will quickly be found out by others. That's why peer review and testing by others to try to verify results are vital parts of science.
If some findings from science happen to disagree with religious dogma it should be proof to any educated person that they have been following false dogma. Denial of science is just plain ignorance IMO.
Edited by ghoti (07/13/10 11:02 PM)
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#189192 - 07/14/10 06:06 PM
Re: Atheists' Billboard Vandalized in NC
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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OK, Ghoti.
Paul
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