#187892 - 06/14/10 07:23 PM
Who are these spirits?
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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1 Sameul 16:23And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
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1 Kings 22:20And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the Eternal hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Eternal hath spoken evil concerning thee.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#187893 - 06/14/10 07:50 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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This is a very grey area I think and probably has had many bible scholars puzzled through the years though I have never heard these scriptures discussed before. God is a being beyond our understanding, I think siince He also has a death angel on His staff(remember the angel who went through Egypt slaying all the firstborn of the Egyptians down to even their animal off spring, I think)to force egypt to turn His people loose from slavery. I have heard of lying spirits and prophets who spoke lies so they may have been tools God used to work with the early mankind. My opinion. God even used Lucifer in His control of man. Remember Job? We should just shake our head whenmen try to lock God in a box of rules he can understand. No one can understand God but Those of the Trinity equal to Him. Godsays He is love and He says that all things will work together for good for those who love Him and that is all we have to understand.
Paul
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#187894 - 06/14/10 08:49 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Paul I
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Posts: 7913
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From what I understand when Satan became who he is he had a legion of angels at his command. Over the centuries Satan was accused of nearly everything that was bad. 100,000 people were murdered as witches in Europe and then people thought maybe Satan wasn't responsible according to the History Channel.
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"...only the shadow knows"
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#187895 - 06/14/10 08:57 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
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Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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We should just shake our head whenmen try to lock God in a box of rules he can understand.
I so agree.
No one can understand God but Those of the Trinity equal to Him.
Those of the Trinity are not equal to Him. So it is written...
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#187896 - 06/14/10 08:59 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: Paul I]
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flicka
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Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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then people thought maybe Satan wasn't responsible according to the History Channel.
The devil made me do it is sooo 70s!
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#187903 - 06/15/10 08:24 AM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: flicka]
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MerryA
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Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 10887
Loc: Tennessee
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Even in the New Testament, Jesus cast out evil spirits from people. Debilitating mental illness or demonic possession? Perhaps they are the same thing.
_________________________
"I was curious. Since I'm not a cat, that's not dangerous."
- Greg House
76.22.172.94
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#187908 - 06/15/10 11:13 AM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: MerryA]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Debilitating mental illness or demonic possession?
Neither. "An evil spirit from God"...
How unfair can this whole deal get?
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#187911 - 06/15/10 12:50 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Could God be that great if we understood everything about Him? Lke an ant eyeballing a man and knowing everything about him. For one thing man is locked in dimensions and so far cannot cross over or get out..he is locked into the sweep of time. God is above all of that and as for physical size (of course God is spirit, not physical, at least according to the bible)how big and powerfulwould you need to be to create the immensity of the universe and bodies populating it?
Good thing we don't know everything and considering our brains size and limitation, we never could.
Paul
Edited by Paulwa_dup1 (06/15/10 12:50 PM)
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#187912 - 06/15/10 02:29 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
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Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Could God be that great if we understood everything about Him?
But what we do "know" about Him is pretty disturbing. One reason I dislike Bible "study" is that is causes me much more doubt than understanding.
I have never heard these scriptures discussed before.
Neither have I and I don't have to wonder why. Having been raised in the Lutheran church & educated in parochial school, we were discouraged from questioning verses such as these. The answer was always the same 'God is greater than our understanding'. Why are contradictions in the Bible always dismissed away in this manner? I think it's because to confront these contradictions would force us to reevaluate our concept of God. And, that can't happen.
Like the concept of a 3-in-1 God. I was taught that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were equal parts of the whole. According to Jesus, this isn't true. But, when I would raise the point during Bible study...oops! Another question that is beyond man's scope of understanding.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#187914 - 06/15/10 03:01 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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My thoughts on the trinity is that God the father is supreme. As long as the Son of God or the Spirit of God is resident within the Godhead they are all equal but when the Son moves away from the Godhead he becomes subservient as does the Holy Spirit when He moves away from the Godhead. The Godhead or supreme God is always the highest in command. The Son and Holy Spirt are always subservient to God the Father but they are all of one mind and purpose so for the most part they are all near equal. My opinion.
Paul
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#187916 - 06/15/10 03:21 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
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Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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The Son and Holy Spirt are always subservient to God the Father
It doesn't seem that Jesus thinks that...there's something highly special about the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#187917 - 06/15/10 03:24 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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MerryA
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Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 10887
Loc: Tennessee
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The Old Testament view of God is much different than the New Testament view. I'm not sure the OT makes a difference between "demonic" and "God sent" - God created all, including free choice which can lead to evil, therefore, even if it is recently from Satan, it is originally from God. But I think God controls even the evil spirits but again, because of the free will stuff, they can choose to remain evil.
I believe there are distinct differences in a spirit from Satan and one from God. God is love and compassion, Satan is fear and hate. If it is an evil spirit it is, by definition, of Satan.
I believe the "evil spirit from God" was not sent by God but rather originally created by God prior to becoming evil.
God gave David the power through music to cause the evil spirit to leave Saul.
_________________________
"I was curious. Since I'm not a cat, that's not dangerous."
- Greg House
76.22.172.94
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#187918 - 06/15/10 03:31 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: flicka]
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MerryA
Member
Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 10887
Loc: Tennessee
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The Son and Holy Spirt are always subservient to God the Father It doesn't seem that Jesus thinks that...there's something highly special about the Holy Spirit. Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
_________________________
"I was curious. Since I'm not a cat, that's not dangerous."
- Greg House
76.22.172.94
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#187919 - 06/15/10 03:53 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: MerryA]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Then how do you explain statements like this?
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Luke 18:19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."
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It appears Jesus is pointing out an inequality between Him & the Father.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#187925 - 06/15/10 05:16 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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That may be because He was away from the Godhead when He made that statement.Because Jesus was also human that made him belonging to the created side of things at that time and not devine as God is in heaven. But He had very powerful connection to the Father that no one else had.
Paul
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#187960 - 06/16/10 11:22 AM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Jesus showed that he had serious uncertainties about his divinity at several points within the gospels. According to Matthew 27:46 his final words while dying on the cross were " My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?", which certainly implies that he had doubts even at that point. If he knew that he and God had equal status, why in the world would he say such a thing?
God as depicted in the Old Testament is very often angry, vindictive, and even cruel while the New Testament God emphasizes kindness, love, and compassion. Makes you wonder whether God changed or if the people writing the books just had a different perspective.
Flicka, you got off easy. Our pastor accused me of heresy and blasphemy when I used to bring up questions like these in Bible study class back when I was a teenager.
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#187979 - 06/16/10 03:49 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: ghoti]
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Paul I
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Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 7913
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When Jesus died he was man.
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"...only the shadow knows"
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#187986 - 06/16/10 06:34 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: Paul I]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I agree PaulI. But when God ressurected Him He was Lord and part of the trinity. The new info out on the shroud of turin has scientists crawling all over it. One physicist thinks the shroud holds a moment of singularity much like the one of the Big Bang and there are many scientists searching the fibers for holographic information. It s the only image thay cannot understand that is two dimensonal but ewith 3 dmensional holographiic data.There is also some flower patterns on the cloth but they hold only twodimensional information and they are all flowers of Jerusalem according to the state botanist of Israel who verified them. They think that at the moment the image formed the body floated halfway between the upper and lower sheets of cloth and they were perfectly stretched and flat when the mage formed. I have ordered the DVD called 'The Fabric of Time' that I saw on Trinity Broadcasting Network Movie series. It was mind blowing. Of course many people with this new information think it definately was Jesus Christs burial cloths at the time of His ressurection. There was a face shroud that was seperated from the main shroud for centuries that when they lad it against the shroud it fit perfectly from the blood patterns. the blood was AB on both and the material in both were from the same time period of Jerusalem.The clincher was thay found marks of coins on Hs eyes of which the right one had four letters on it and a shepherds crook emblem. That coin circulated in 29 ad.
The carbon dating that was done was thrown out when it was proven to be from a patch used later on to mend burn marks and was put in using perfect weave method and was proven to be fact under the microscope.
Paul
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#187992 - 06/16/10 08:14 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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There are lots of unanswered questions about the shroud that could be answered if small samples of the material could be directly examined, but that is no long allowed. Even if tests showed it to be older than the mid-1300's date that the first three samples showed, it would be far from proof that it had any connection with Jesus.
The burden of proof lies with those who claim that it is the actual burial shroud of Jesus, and the church leaders refuse to allow any more testing so we'll never know. I'm skeptical, since there have been so many religious fakes and hoaxes of various types perpetrated over the years.
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#188007 - 06/17/10 12:13 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I understand your questioning, Ghoti. I have finally fallen in with those who do believe it is the actual burial cloth that has recorded the ressurection power of Jesus..but unless the shroud releases more of material for testing we won't be able to prove anything. I ordered the video I talked about and maybe can after viewing it again bring some scientists by name and their work here for discussion. I think this will be a great subject for discussion here, don't you?
Paul
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#188011 - 06/17/10 02:07 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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MerryA
Member
Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 10887
Loc: Tennessee
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While Jesus was on earth prior to his death and resurrection, He was human and divine - He is God come to earth in human form. He is the Son and God.
I do not believe that Jesus had doubts of his divinity. The cry from the cross, to me, was the human Jesus who was fully sufferning a horrific death.
Not logical? It isn't. The relationship of the Trinity (three being one) is part of mystery of faith. You either accept it or you don't. It cannot be explained fully in human terms because it is not man made.
_________________________
"I was curious. Since I'm not a cat, that's not dangerous."
- Greg House
76.22.172.94
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#188066 - 06/18/10 05:12 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: MerryA]
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Paul I
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Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 7913
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What is it with these relics that either disappear or make tightly controlled appearances usually under the auspices of some religious organization or government? What are they afraid of?
I remember as a teen ager studying about the Roman and Greek gods and goddesses. The feeling was that polytheism was heretical, misguided and wrong which is why it doesn't exist. Yet Christians have angels, archangels, cheribim, seraphime, cast out angels,spirits and so on. To me it gets weird to the point where it's more like Harry Potter than a religion so that portion I reject as the mythology of the scribes who may have been partially out of touch with reality or simply enhancing things for popular appeal.
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"...only the shadow knows"
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#188069 - 06/18/10 05:46 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: Paul I]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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PaulI the Jewish bible has changed more lives than any other writing in the world..ever. That should say something about man and his intelligence for picking that book above all others because of its overall content.
Paul
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#188077 - 06/18/10 06:27 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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MerryA
Member
Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 10887
Loc: Tennessee
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PaulI the Jewish bible has changed more lives than any other writing in the world..ever.
Not really - Christianity (Protestant and Catholic) is the worlds largest religion with about 2.0 billion followers, followed by Islam with around 1.5 billion and then Hinduism in third with about 900 million. However, when split into denominations, Sunni Muslims, is the largest denomination.
What is the world polultion now? Seems there are some people not being counted. LOL
_________________________
"I was curious. Since I'm not a cat, that's not dangerous."
- Greg House
76.22.172.94
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#188089 - 06/18/10 10:30 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: MerryA]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I consider the Jewishbible to cover Judaism, Christianity too. The new testament derives from the foundation of the old testament.
Paul
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#189236 - 07/15/10 10:04 AM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Merry, the current world population is estimated to be about 6.9 billion. Remember that there are about 1.3 billion living in communist China, which is officially atheist. Buddhism and various African and Asian religiouns also add up to a significant number of followers.
Catholics make up by far the largest single sub-group of Christians world-wide.
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#189307 - 07/15/10 07:04 PM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I heard a pastor say that christianity is growing faster than any other religion world wide. I think he could be right. The bible speaks of the latter rain where God will pour out His spirit to all who turn to Him. These could be the days.
Paul
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#189323 - 07/16/10 03:33 AM
Re: Who are these spirits?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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The Catholic church membership is growing rapidly world-wide, mainly due to the high birth rate in South America. Islam and Hinduism are also growing rapidly because the birth rate in their countries is also very high.
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