#186981 - 05/19/10 12:58 PM
Re: A Little Money Lesson
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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I still don't buy that. It implies that time is linear and that EVERYTHING IS PREDETERMINED. John Wilkes Booth had to shoot Lincoln, Hitler had to kill Jewish people, Jeffrey Dahmer had to be a mass murderer, RuPaul had to be gay and NOTHING they could have ever done in their lives would have changed things.
If that's the way the universe works then cause and effect and free will are nothing but illusions and there's also no such thing as personal responsibility. Why do we punish criminals if they really had no choice to do what they did, and why would God judge and condemn us for following a scripted pathway?
IMO, there isn't just ONE future, there are trillions of POTENTIAL futures and we can influence which one becomes reality. Everyone else must think so too, otherwise why would we punish people for wrongdoing, reward hard work, and bother to get out of bed in the morning, since what is going to happen is going to happen anyway?
Steven Hawking has said that he believes that time travel into the past is impossible because of the "Grandfather paradox" which was brought up long ago, and I agree. He talks of using the gravity of a black hole for time travel into the future, which is feasible if impractical, but that's just into the future as it became and not some pre-ordained one.
If the answer to this is just something like "all things are possible to God" then there's no point in talking about it since IMO that's a cop-out.
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#186985 - 05/19/10 05:04 PM
Re: A Little Money Lesson
[Re: ghoti]
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anita
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Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 155
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I really don't want to wade into the middle of your discussion, but just wanted to point out a couple of things from a purely scientific perspective.
First, Hawking's view about the impossibility of time travel into the past is only conjecture at this point, because nobody has presented any formal proof that shows conclusively that it is impossible.
Second, quantum nonlocality has been verified experimentally, and nonlocality in spacetime suggests, though does not prove, that information at least, if not matter itself, can flow backwards in time. In quantum electrodynamics, you have wave functions propagating in spacetime in all directions, and Feynman and his colleagues even observed that in one interpretation of the equations, a positron could be viewed as an electron traveling backwards in time.
Third, experiments into quantum retrocausality are ongoing, and could provide a more definitive answer in the next year or two, but already we have results from quantum entanglement experiments performed with pairs of polarization entangled photons, in a version of the Wheeler Delayed Choice Experiment, conducted by Vincent Jacques and others, that quantum information does travel backwards in time.
So, although it seems counterintuitive, it seems from the results of the experiments performed so far, that information from the future can travel to the past, and an event in the future can affect events in the past.
And if that is the case, as it seems to be, then there exists no logical or scientific basis to deny the possiblility of the existence of precognition.
Just some food for thought...
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#186987 - 05/19/10 05:21 PM
Re: A Little Money Lesson
[Re: anita]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Not predetermined Ghoti but infinite paths in parallel with the linear flow of time. As far as Annita says the God factor is the thing that can affect future and past so then the future with God'stouch can affect the past. Don't know if that function is possible in depending on scientific functons..without god I doubt it. Like traveling at the speed of light gets bogged down with lack of enough energy in the universe to achieve it..I think the fullness of knowledge gets bogged down with infinate facts.
Paul
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#187016 - 05/19/10 08:57 PM
Re: A Little Money Lesson
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Paul I
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Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 7913
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Right on, Anita. I was just about to say exactly that. However, this discussion ignores the quantum impact of Murphy's Law #2 which clearly states that the energy consumed in pursuit of dark matter is inversely proportional with the delta factor based on
VanDorgan's constant. If one considers this then one realizes that the cross dimensional intersection of photons results in time shifts in all intersected dimensions up to a maximum of 75.681 parsecs when velocity shift is expressed as distance. This in unnoticeable to the stationery observer but apparent to an observer actively involved in meditative activity as the alpha waves collide with the interference output of
transecting dimensions. Yeah, time is certainly not linear.
Edited by Paul I (05/19/10 08:59 PM)
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#187032 - 05/20/10 12:08 PM
Re: A Little Money Lesson
[Re: Paul I]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Man Paul, you and Annita are frggin' brilliant, thought I was the only one privy to such knowledge, course I got my knowledge from the bible so God is the real thinker of those thoughts! But we all know that Quantum Mechanics is at a lower dimensional level so all that thunkin thinken is totally irreverant..er errelevant in the finality.Sorry..
Paul
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#187068 - 05/20/10 09:50 PM
Re: A Little Money Lesson
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Paul I
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Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 7913
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And I got most of mine starting with Mad Magazine in the 50's and progressing to The Onion.
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#187074 - 05/21/10 09:36 AM
Re: A Little Money Lesson
[Re: Paul I]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Our human perception of time as a constant linear thing has definitely proven to be false and is due to our being confined to the surface of the earth, much as our perception of gravity as a constant. If we ever achieve the ability to travel near the speed of light or get exposed to extremely high gravity fields the way they distort time will become obvious.
We still have a strong perception of the principle of cause and effect, and it's also at the core of much of science. If cause and effect is also just a localized illusion then nearly everything about human society, including the concept of individual responsibility, much of science, our legal system, and most of our religious concepts will also prove to be illusions and have to be completely re-evaluated.
I'm very much aware that things like new theories of quantum mechanics and string theory, if correct, are going to very mind-boggling to our current views, but if they overturn the principle of cause and effect then we will have to completely redefine what it means to be human.
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#187075 - 05/21/10 09:41 AM
Re: A Little Money Lesson
[Re: Paul I]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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And I got most of mine starting with Mad Magazine in the 50's and progressing to The Onion.
LOL - me too. 
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#187078 - 05/21/10 11:18 AM
Re: A Little Money Lesson
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I could never really get into most of the Mad comics but there was one cartoonist I admired highly and his name was Don (Martin)? something or other I think. He drew people with sluggish long faces who appeared half asleep with droopy eyelids always..idiots too. very funny and rediculous.
Paul
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