#186956 - 05/18/10 05:43 PM
Madeline Murray 'O'hare
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Paul I
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Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 7913
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I was watching a bio on her on the Bio Network this a.m. and saw video of her in an everyday situation chatting with family, etc. She seemed pretty likable and normal. In retrospect one can see her campaign to separate church and state as pretty reasonable. The program went on to report on her death, etc.
Were she alive today I would expect the conservative Republicans to embrace her beliefs as they further extend the concept of getting government out of our lives. Somehow, that wouldn't happen.
So which way do Teabaggers and their like want it?
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#186968 - 05/18/10 08:35 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Paul I]
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ghoti
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IMO the Teabaggers want the government out of their lives except for the parts that benefit them. A large number of them are on social security and Medicare and you won't see them hollering to abolish those things.
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#186973 - 05/19/10 09:27 AM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ghoti]
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MerryA
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Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 10887
Loc: Tennessee
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Most of my family considers O'hare in league with the devil. I agree on separation of church and state. I think she was extremely brave for taking the stand she did. It is probably what killed her.
It seems to me that most Tea Partiers are white conservative Christians - they want a state religion as long as it is their religion.
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#186976 - 05/19/10 11:22 AM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: MerryA]
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ronniechoate34
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Loc: tennerida
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William Murray, the son of the O'hare woman is a preacher now and has publicly testified to some of the awful and blasphemous things that this blasphemous and vulgar woman did. I don't appreciate anything that this woman did for any citizen of America and much less for her own house hold.
Her son being saved and turning his life around and accepting the truth is a testament to of God's glory.
The fact that she was killed by one of the many evil people she liked to surround herself with is also a testament. It's a testimony about the judgment of God. The way those people were discovered, in pieces,,,,that's horrific.
Plus they found the first body by the Trinity River.
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#187017 - 05/19/10 09:19 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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Paul I
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Posts: 7913
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She had a large impact on the refinement of the need we have for the separation of church and state. Without it we would most like be officially a Christian country with untold consequences regarding worldwide religious conflict.
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#187031 - 05/20/10 12:01 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Paul I]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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and she was dead wrong because the trouble we are having with our country right now is because we have removed faith in God from our government and peoples openly living it at any place or time,our laws won't work without a faith based people.
Paul
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#187067 - 05/20/10 09:35 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Paul I
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Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 7913
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Does this mean all faiths or just those you approve of?
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#187070 - 05/20/10 10:34 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Paul I]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Just faith in the God of the bible as far as I am concerned.
Paul
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#187073 - 05/21/10 06:25 AM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Well, our constitution says nothing about the Bible or any specific religious belief. Freedom of religion has to include the freedom to have no religion at all.
Personally I find any attempt to force your beliefs on others to be obnoxious. I disagreed with some of the militancy of her approach, but radical christians are the worst offenders in this country.
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#187079 - 05/21/10 11:22 AM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Nope I'd say radcal Islam is much worse, Ghoti! And we do have them here in good old America..they keep creeping out of the woodwork. At least radical christianity doesn't go around killing unbelievers...with the exceptionof the occassional crazy who shoots an abortionist.
Paul
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#187085 - 05/21/10 01:47 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ronniechoate34
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Loc: tennerida
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Amen to that Paul.
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#187087 - 05/21/10 03:10 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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ghoti
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Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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But they used to in the past, and judging by somme of the rhetoric from the extreme elements if Christiabity were ever declared the state religion of the US it might just happen again. Whenever and wherever religious intolerance is allowed to ddominate a society violence will follow.
History has shown that over and over many times in the past.
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#187096 - 05/21/10 05:42 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ghoti]
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ronniechoate34
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What about Islamic law? It's brutal. Jesus didn't teach us to be like that. And oddly enough, He himself was brutally murdered.
Jesus Christ overcame that pesky situation and came out on top, bar none. Hallelujah!
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#187112 - 05/21/10 09:50 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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ghoti
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The majority of the followers of Islam have no interest in murdering anyone. Radical extremists of ANY religion who believe in spreading their faith by force are extremely dangerous people.
Edited by ghoti (05/22/10 12:42 AM)
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#187113 - 05/21/10 10:13 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ghoti]
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Paul I
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Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 7913
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And the first thing radical religious extremists do is ignore or violate many of the beliefs of their own religion. In that sense they are not even religious extremists; just mentally ill people.
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#187114 - 05/22/10 12:10 AM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Paul I]
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shakey56
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Registered: 03/31/04
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Jesus murdered? Wasn't there a trial, and wan't he sentenced to death? Even if we stretch and call it murder according to Paulwa God murdered him then.
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#187117 - 05/22/10 06:48 AM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ghoti]
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ronniechoate34
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The majority of the followers of Islam have no interest in murdering anyone.
Unless someone converted from Islam, or committed some other horrible sin. Like drawing a cartoon that they have judged to be offensive.
Edited by ronniechoate34 (05/22/10 06:49 AM)
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#187118 - 05/22/10 09:06 AM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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ghoti
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Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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There certainly are fundamentalists in Islam who follow beliefs most the Western world left behind long ago, like using violence toward non-believers, subjectivizing women, shunning much of modern science, abhorring entertainment for it's own sake, etc. They're making a lot of noise these days and are trying to gain control over several countries in the Middle-east so we're very aware of them.
There are also some radical Christians whose beliefs aren't that much different in those areas, but they don't currently control any countries and we aren't at war with them so it's easy to forget that they're out there. They could potentially be just as big a threat to our way of life as the followers of Islam we're fighting if they ever got in charge.
IMO you're making the mistake of assuming it's their religion that's at fault rather than their extremist interpretation of that religion. There are 100's of millions of followers of Islam around the world who follow a modern lifestyle and have no interest in practicing violence toward others, so that pretty much proves that it isn't the faith that's causing the problem.
The Bible can be a book that brings love for others and peacefulness or hatred and violence depending on which passages you tend to take as the central part of your creed, and the same is true for the Koran and most other holy books. We are threatened and at war with extremists who happen to use the Koran, not with Islam in general.
Don't make the mistake this this proves Christianity is necessarily a more peaceful religion than Islam.
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#187120 - 05/22/10 01:13 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Jesus of Hs own free will and because His Father asked Him too, took on all the sins of mankind and allowed Himself to become the maximum blood sacrifice for all of mankind who would accept Jesus sacrifice and would there fore fall under Gods pardon for their sins. Not for anything they had done, as it was only Jesus blood that bought their forgiveness. No man killed Jesus, nor did God the Father, Jesus gave all by His own will.
In my opinion the Bible when sifted down tyo finality is a book of peace. The Koran under the same rules sifts down to a book of violence in that a person who refuses Islam can be put to death immediately. No where in the bible is this rule to be found ghoti so you better do some more thinking. The Catholics did not follow Gods word when they murdered legions of protestants in the dark ages. Islam if they follow their Koran would murder any refusing unbeliever. You cannot dispute this.
Paul
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#187157 - 05/22/10 09:35 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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There are plenty of passages in the Bible that condone murder. The Israelites we told to exterminate entire populations because they followed a different god, children who disobey their parents and adulterous women and false propjets are all supposed to be stoned to death, etc.
If someone used those passages as the sole basis of their creed they could justify a tremendous amount f violence and murder and claim to be doing it in the name of god.
Edited by ghoti (05/22/10 09:51 PM)
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#187160 - 05/23/10 03:31 AM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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MerryA
Member
Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 10887
Loc: Tennessee
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At least radical christianity doesn't go around killing unbelievers...with the exceptionof the occassional crazy who shoots an abortionist.
Paul
I don't think the KKK or gay-bashers got your memo. Or as you say, the "Christians" who kill doctors and nurses.
Edited by MerryA (05/23/10 03:32 AM)
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#187162 - 05/23/10 05:44 AM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: MerryA]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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It seems that some people know so little about true Christianity that they also can't pick out a true Christian from one that isn't following the truth.
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#187166 - 05/23/10 09:10 AM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Who gets to to decide which person is a "true" Christian?
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#187167 - 05/23/10 01:04 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ghoti]
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ronniechoate34
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Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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The Word.
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#187169 - 05/23/10 01:10 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Amen to that.
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#187170 - 05/23/10 03:18 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Which means that a Christian cannot visually judge who is Christian & who is not. Some of us may believe we have direct knowledge of how Christ will judge others, but we don't.
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#187171 - 05/23/10 03:38 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: flicka]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Flicka's right, one more time! :-)
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#187200 - 05/24/10 07:02 AM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: flicka]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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Which means that a Christian cannot visually judge who is Christian & who is not. Some of us may believe we have direct knowledge of how Christ will judge others, but we don't.
While we can't know a person's heart or their final destination we can certainly judge their position based on where they are in the Word of God. I judge myself based by the exact same standard, and I usually fall short. Praise God for the Power of The Blood of Jesus Christ. God provided a lamb for us all. Hallelujah.
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#187207 - 05/24/10 01:37 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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And once again Ronnie is right on.
Paul
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#187209 - 05/24/10 01:44 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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I judge myself based by the exact same standard, and I usually fall short.
But, does it mean you are not a "true" Christian? Of course not. The best we can do is to follow our own path and be true to ourselves, no matter what path others may take.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#187212 - 05/24/10 03:16 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: flicka]
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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Obviously followers of Locke over Jack but see how that all worked out in the end.
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#187226 - 05/25/10 05:30 AM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Greg]
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ævory
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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Obviously followers of Locke over Jack but see how that all worked out in the end.
I don't understand at all what you wrote here.
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#187229 - 05/25/10 07:09 AM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ævory]
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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faith base ideaology versus reason based
it was a comparison "Lost" on most I am guessing 
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#187233 - 05/25/10 02:16 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Greg]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Especially if one has never seen "Lost".
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#187234 - 05/25/10 02:32 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: flicka]
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ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
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I've never seen Lost. It does seem like a show that I would've enjoyed at one time in my life. It also seems like a blasphemous show, a fact that probably wouldn't have escaped me even during my darkest days.
PRAISE GOD, HE'S SET ME FREE!!
Now the next time I visit the mountains I'll have to remember to praise God in that manner. I hope I don't upset the locals.
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#187235 - 05/25/10 02:42 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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It also seems like a blasphemous show
I've never seen it. I only figured out what Greg was talking about by googling his "clue".
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#187236 - 05/25/10 03:26 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ronniechoate34]
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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I've never seen Lost.
It also seems like a blasphemous show, a fact that probably wouldn't have escaped me even during my darkest days.
LMAO
"seems like"
yea and JC hung out with prostitutes, what does that seem like?
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#187240 - 05/25/10 06:30 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Greg]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Jesus associated with them for the salvation of their souls..something no one else could do.
Typical Greg putdown of christianity and our saviour,seems like to me.
Paul
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#187252 - 05/25/10 09:25 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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why do those who profess to be "true" believers show themselves to be the most judgemental and devisive?
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#187253 - 05/25/10 09:56 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Greg]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Just don't like to see Jesus maligned in any way. He deserves honor and respect not sleazy jokes!
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#187254 - 05/26/10 09:18 AM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Paulwa, I agree about Jesus deserving great respect. If we would all try to follow his message the world would be a MUCH better place.
OTOH, it's good to have a sense of humor about things. IMO anyone whose beliefs are strong won't be bothered by a bit of joking around.
Edited by ghoti (05/26/10 09:49 AM)
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#187256 - 05/26/10 11:39 AM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ghoti]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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Be happy to honor and respect yours when you start honoring and respecting other ppl's beliefs.
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#187258 - 05/26/10 01:15 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Don't think I have ever disrespected anyones personal belief, I am totally happy to let all follow their own choice of paths. I think where you all have aproblem with me is that I beleive following Jesus is the only true way. It is what I believe but only because the bible says that very same thing. I wouldn't be much of a christian if I dismissed what the very book of laws and rules I follow says. But, am not telling anyone to drop their beliefs and follow mine, that has to be their personal choice. If they turn away from the bible it doesn't affect me in any way, but I do take offence if my religious viiews are maligned in any way. Sorry it iis a weakness of mine and I am not in any rush to change it. On the other hand I admire many people who's beliefs are 180 degrees out of phase with my own. I am beginning to admire and respect inkblister who is Buddhist oriented, Ghoti who has to me a pretty far out look on religion. I admired several agnostic and atheist people such as Teyrn and Starlight Angel,'I' was a really great person to talk to though he was a total atheist. There have been many here that II talked with and never expectedthem to drop their views to take up mine.
What the heck were we talking about anyway??? I've lost my place. Anyway that's enough.
Paul
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#187259 - 05/26/10 01:39 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Paulwa, you show your disrespect by insisting that your beliefs are the ONLY correct ones. Most of the other folks here have equally strong beliefs to yours but the majority don't go around constantly implying everyone else who doesn't agree is wrong.
I fully realize that evangelical Christianity tells its followers that they're supposed to seek converts. That's fine if you're talking to people uncertain in their beliefs but just gets very old among those who don't want to be converted.
I find it fun and very educational to compare beliefs with others but am not seeking to convert anyone, and IMO most other posters here feel the same. I wish you (and other strong evangelicals) could take the same mindset.
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#187261 - 05/26/10 01:56 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Well I am not actively seeking to change anyones beliefs and converting beliefs is not one of my strong suits, Ghoti and those who attend my church would think I am very weak in this area. Insisting that the bible is the only way to God is just repeating what the good book says. The Koran does the same thing. We all stand or fall on what we believe and it is totally personal. I don't know why am alwaysd accused of trying to convert anyone. I don't I have just put out what I believe for what it is worth to anyone and for the most part most folks think very little of it but accuse me of arm twisting and this is just not so. I am happy if all follow what they believe.
Paul
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#187269 - 05/26/10 04:13 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Respectfully understood Paulwa. You should hold firm to your beliefs while also considering that others feel just as strongly about theirs.
It would probably be best if we would all make it clear that our statements about spirtuality are always "IMO" since religion is totally a matter of faith rather than proof.
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Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#187319 - 05/28/10 12:15 PM
Re: Madeline Murray 'O'hare
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I totally agree, Ghoti. Even the bible says to choose your path of belief's in fear and trembling. I guess the meaning of that statement denotes bad consequences for a wrong choice but there are several religions outside the bible that deny there are any bad consequences. Too bad God didn't just lay everything out in plain language for all. But IMO He had His reasons in my path of beliefs. t will be a relief to finally see what is the absolute truth of it all.
Paul
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