#186081 - 04/24/10 04:32 PM
The Book of Thomas
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
This book is basically a list of sayings by Jesus as compiled by a man named Thomas, who claimed to be one of his followers. Many of the sayings are nearly identical to those quoted in the 4 main Gospels but there are some notable differences.
This book is totally omitted from most Protestant Bibles but is included as a part of the Apocrypha in Catholic Bibles. If you've never read it, here's a link to the complete book:
http://reluctant-messenger.com/gospel-thomas-Messrs-Brill_of_Leiden.htm
Anybody have any comments about Thomas? Here are a few quotes that I find place interesting new insights on Jesus that differ from traditional views
(3) Jesus said: If those who lead you say unto you: Behold, the Kingdom is in heaven, then the birds of the heaven will be before you. If they say unto you: It is in the sea, then the fish will be before you. But the Kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you. When you know yourselves, then shall you be known, and you shall know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if ye do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty, and you are poverty.
(46) Jesus said: From Adam to John the Baptist there is none born of woman who is higher than John the Baptist, so that his eyes will not be broken (?) But I have said, He who shall be among you as a little one shall know the kingdom, and shall be higher than John.
(67) Jesus said: He who knows the All but fails (to know) him-self lacks everything.
(77) Jesus said: I am the light that is over them all. I am the All; the All has come forth from me, and the All has attained unto me. Cleave a (piece of) wood: I am there. Raise up the stone, an ye shall find me there.
(95) [Jesus said]: If you have money, do not lend at interest, but give [it] to him from whom you will not receive them back.
(I07) Jesus said: The kingdom is like a shepherd who had hundred sheep. One of them, the biggest, went astray. He left the ninety-nine and sought after the one till he found it. When he had laboured, he said to the sheep: I love thee more than the ninety-nine.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186082 - 04/24/10 04:52 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: ghoti]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
This Thomas may have been there and heard Jesus and quoted Jesus but I don't think he understood a word Jesus said. I think he was one of those who Jesus said to his disciples, 'I speak to you in parables" so Thomas was one of the people Jesus hid the truth fromm maybe with the parables. This Thomas writings is truly uninspired and apparently those who worked at cannonizing the bible thought so too. That is why it was discarded into the phoney books of the apochrapha. they are just interestng historical writings but who knows whether there is an ounce of truth in any of the writings.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186083 - 04/24/10 05:12 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: ghoti]
|
flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
|
I think Thomas was drunk when he wrote this:
(114) Simon Peter said to them: Let Mary go forth from among us, for women are not worthy of the life. Jesus said: Behold, I shall lead her, that I may make her male, in order that she also may become a living spirit like you males. For every woman who makes herself male shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186084 - 04/24/10 05:28 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
|
I think he was one of those who Jesus said to his disciples, 'I speak to you in parables" so Thomas was one of the people Jesus hid the truth fromm maybe with the parables.
Hey, Jesus told Thomas a secret that he told no one else...well according to Thomas any:
(13) Jesus said to his disciples: Make a comparison to me, and tell me whom I am like. Simon Peter said to him: Thou art like a righteous angel. Matthew said to him: Thou art like a wise man of understanding. Thomas said to him: Master, my mouth will no wise suffer that I say whom thou art like. Jesus said: I am not thy master, because thou hast drunk, thou hast become drunk from the bubbling spring which I have measured out. And he took him, went aside, and spoke to him three words. Now when Thomas came to his companions, they asked him: What did Jesus say unto thee? Thomas said to them: If I tell you one of the words which he said to me, you will take up stones and throw them me; and a fire will come out of the stones and burn you up.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186085 - 04/24/10 05:48 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: flicka]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
The Book of Thomas quotes Jesus telling us to look inside ourselves to find truth. IMO that's the main reason it was excluded from the Bible and suppressed.
If we can find the truth inside ourselves then we don't need all those priests and religious leaders telling us what to believe and those folks would be out of a job. That's a pretty dangerous idea if you make your living off preaching.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186086 - 04/24/10 06:04 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: ghoti]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
Man is full of sin and short of days. He needs look to Jesus for salvation. There are always those around looking to make a buck off the unwary any way they can, yes even priests and preachers! If I was looking for truth I would not be looking to a Thomas.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186087 - 04/24/10 06:07 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: ghoti]
|
flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
|
The Book of Thomas quotes Jesus telling us to look inside ourselves to find truth. IMO that's the main reason it was excluded from the Bible and suppressed.
I would agree except that it is included in the Catholic bible. If any church would worry about losing the "middleman" positions, I would think it would be Catholics.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186088 - 04/24/10 06:09 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
|
If I was looking for truth I would not be looking to a Thomas.
I'm assuming this Thomas is also "Doubting" Thomas?
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186091 - 04/24/10 06:24 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: flicka]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
Not sure..
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186092 - 04/24/10 06:25 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: flicka]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
There is definitely a disciple named Thomas mentioned in the Gospels. His book is included in the Apocrypha of the Catholic Bible now, but the status and power of the priesthood and church hierarchy are firmly established. When the Bible was first compiled back around 400 AD the Book of Thomas was ferociously suppressed.
IMO the Apocrypha contains some pretty interesting stuff and those books were left out of the bible by vote of a bunch of priests way back then. Their motivations may have been driven by other things than just the pursuit of truthfulness.
Edited by ghoti (04/24/10 06:28 PM)
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186093 - 04/24/10 06:45 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: ghoti]
|
flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
|
When the Bible was first compiled back around 400 AD the Book of Thomas was ferociously suppressed.
One thing I find amusing is how women are generally noted as in a subservient position in the bible. I find that very telling. Even my own dear father once claimed that "the church started going downhill when they let women sit on the same side as men." 
Edited by flicka (04/24/10 06:46 PM)
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186094 - 04/24/10 06:55 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: flicka]
|
flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
|
Here's an interesting wikipedia take on the gospel of Thomas.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186095 - 04/25/10 09:35 AM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: flicka]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
Women's rights certainly weren't given much consideration back in those days, and Thomas is no exception.
I realize that anyone who accepts the Bible as the absolute word of God will automatically reject writings like the Book of Thomas, but IMO it's interesting to see that there were other views of Jesus back in the early days than just those that made it into the New Testament.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186096 - 04/25/10 10:04 AM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: ghoti]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
There is also a so called book of Judas. Now Thomas and Judas, there'sa pair to draw too.:-) Atheists are dragging whatever thing they can to discredit the bible and we know who is ultimately behind them and their effort.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186098 - 04/25/10 11:55 AM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
Understandable that you feel that way, Paulwa, but I find these things interesting. The Book of Thomas and other similar texts were written within the same time frame as the rest of the New Testament.
During those early years before the Bible was compiled in its modern form large numbers of Christians accepted them as true accounts. The views of Jesus from some groups back then differed significantly from the modern-day one.
The single unified view only came into being after the Bible was compiled.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186103 - 04/25/10 01:38 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
|
Atheists are dragging whatever thing they can to discredit the bible and we know who is ultimately behind them and their effort.
I might agree with this thought if I'd read anything controversial in the book of Thomas. However, almost everything Thomas quotes from Jesus is something I've read in the bible itself. There is another book by Thomas about Jesus when he was a child. It's been years since I read it, but it is much more controversial than this one.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186110 - 04/25/10 03:23 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: flicka]
|
crypticgimp
Member
Registered: 07/15/07
Posts: 153
Loc: erie canal
|
the book of judas is very interesting and so are the dead sea scrolls. they paint a whole different picture on jesus/the role of women etc. i do feel it is a powerful statement to look within. that's what jesus' message was about. you didnt need a rabbi or someone else telling you what to do, god gave u the tools already.
_________________________
Smells like death in a bucket of chicken!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186111 - 04/25/10 04:01 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: crypticgimp]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
Like the apostle Paul said, (in his day)the spirit of antichrist is alive and active in the world. Still is apparently.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186112 - 04/25/10 05:18 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
Paulwa, remember these are ANCIENT texts we're talking about - as old as the Bible itself. Of course you don't accept them, but in their day many folks did.
Have you ever actually read any of the Apocrypha? There really isn't much of anything very shocking or evil about any of them, just a little different view of who Jesus was.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186113 - 04/25/10 05:31 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: ghoti]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
Yes several years back I bought a copy and read it all but there were those back in those days who brushed Jesus off as a mortal man, but Jesus died and rose again and returned to heaven where He is now. He will prove it all in the very near future, much to the chagrin of those who believe He is still in the grave.
Paul
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186121 - 04/25/10 06:37 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
Ya gotta remember that Israel itself stayed nearly 100% Jewish during and after the time of Jesus with very few converts to Christianity, so obviously an awful lot of folks in his own homeland had doubts about his divinity. If it hadn't been for Paul and some of the disciples going around spreading the word to other countries Christianity might have faded right out.
The biggest single thing that happened to help out Christianity was when Constantine converted and then made it the official religion for all of Rome. Up until then it was no more than one of many cult religions of the time.
I find studying the roots of various religions to be fascinating stuff.
Edited by ghoti (04/25/10 06:38 PM)
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186124 - 04/25/10 07:21 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
|
...but there were those back in those days who brushed Jesus off as a mortal man
Thomas was obviously not among them.
_________________________
"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186326 - 04/28/10 12:00 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: flicka]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
Thomas saw Jesus do what no ordinary man could. Yet he doubted. Jesus made an example of him for all time.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186340 - 04/28/10 06:35 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
|
What do you mean "made an example of him"? Thomas doubted that Jesus had been resurrected just on the word of the other disciples, but as soon as he saw for himself, he believed. What was so terrible about that?
Here's the actual passage:
John 20:24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Seems to me that Thomas was perfectly justified in his doubts, and Jesus certainly didn't rebuke or punish him for them.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020&version=KJV
Edited by ghoti (04/28/10 06:54 PM)
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186350 - 04/28/10 08:56 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: ghoti]
|
Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
|
Made an example of thomas doubting, blessed are those who have not seen and believed.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186363 - 04/29/10 10:53 AM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
|
ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
|
I don't believe that this Book of Thomas is the true gospel at all. I do believe that the Catholics use it as a crutch to support their beliefs. It's the corporate entities that throw out these lies. Personally, I find what's being done despicable. People ought to know more about the scriptures than what they are taught, which in many cases is a priest telling them all about how Bible study can be dangerous. And then they point to 2Peter 3:16.
Look here.
And call they this an uniform tenor of text and judgment about the text, so many of their Worthies disclaiming the now received conceit? Nay, we will yet come nearer the quick: doth not their Paris edition differ from the Lovaine, and Hentenius his from them both, and yet all of them allowed by authority? Nay, doth not Sixtus Quintus confess, that certain Catholics (he meaneth certain of his own side) were in such an humor of translating the Scriptures into Latin, that Satan taking occasion by them, though they thought of no such matter, did strive what he could, out of so uncertain and manifold a variety of Translations, so to mingle all things, that nothing might seem to be left certain and firm in them, etc.? Nay, further, did not the same Sixtus ordain by an inviolable decree, and that with the counsel and consent of his Cardinals, that the Latin edition of the old and new Testament, which the Council of Trent would have to be authentic, is the same without controversy which he then set forth, being diligently corrected and printed in the Printing-house of Vatican? Thus Sixtus in his Preface before his Bible. And yet Clement the Eighth his immediate successor, publisheth another edition of the Bible, containing in it infinite differences from that of Sixtus, (and many of them weighty and material) and yet this must be authentic by all means. What is to have the faith of our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with Yea or Nay, if this be not? Again, what is sweet harmony and consent, if this be? Therefore, as Demaratus of Corinth advised a great King, before he talked of the dissensions among the Grecians, to compose his domestic broils (for at that time his Queen and his son and heir were at deadly feud with him) so all the while that our adversaries do make so many and so various editions themselves, and do jar so much about the worth and authority of them, they can with no show of equity challenge us for changing and correcting.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/kjvpref.html
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186364 - 04/29/10 11:15 AM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: ronniechoate34]
|
ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
|
"But now what piety without truth? What truth, what saving truth, without the word of God? What word of God, whereof we may be sure, without the Scripture?" Translators To The Reader
http://www.lamblion.net/Quotations/miles_smith.htm
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186365 - 04/29/10 11:33 AM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: ronniechoate34]
|
Skylark
Member
Registered: 08/15/00
Posts: 17531
Loc: SoCal
|
"The book of Thomas" is not in the Catholic Bible.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186367 - 04/29/10 12:01 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: Skylark]
|
Skylark
Member
Registered: 08/15/00
Posts: 17531
Loc: SoCal
|
Please understand what "the apocrypha" is: books that exist, have some historical significance, yet contain no valid or reliable dogma.
"The Gospel of Thomas" is just that.
It does not appear in the Catholic Bible.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186368 - 04/29/10 12:39 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: Skylark]
|
ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
|
2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.
What'll it be, high mass, low mass, no money no mass?
Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin.
Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.
Did someone mention works salvation?
Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.
An immaculate conception? You be the judge. Personally I don't believe in it. I've judged it to be dung.
You're right Skylark, none of this is in any of the sixty six books of my Bible.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186381 - 04/29/10 03:50 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: ronniechoate34]
|
MerryA
Member
Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 10887
Loc: Tennessee
|
We use the Apocrypha occasionally in our readings in the Episcopal Church.
The Apocrypha contains non-canonical books - those of uncertain authenticity or writings where the work is seriously questioned. Because different denominations have different beliefs about what constitutes canonical scripture, there are several versions of the Apocrypha.
When I recently purchased a new Bible, I got one that had the Apocrypha included so I wouldn't have to carry two books. 
_________________________
"I was curious. Since I'm not a cat, that's not dangerous."
- Greg House
76.22.172.94
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186384 - 04/29/10 05:15 PM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: MerryA]
|
ronniechoate34
Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 540
Loc: tennerida
|
When I recently purchased a new Bible, I got one that had the Apocrypha included so I wouldn't have to carry two books.
You would do something like that.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#186413 - 04/30/10 09:03 AM
Re: The Book of Thomas
[Re: ronniechoate34]
|
Skylark
Member
Registered: 08/15/00
Posts: 17531
Loc: SoCal
|
OMG! ronnie agrees with me!
(It must be a sign of the apocalypse!)
Take care ronnie -- and keep on keeping on!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
