#185943 - 04/21/10 10:34 AM
Turning the other cheek
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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This is from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount:
Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
The same comment is repeated nearly exactly in the Book of Luke. Jesus is clearly telling his followers to practice passive resistance rather than responding to attacks with a counter-attack. This is the approach that was used successfully by both Ghandi and Martin Luther King but appears to be largely ignored by most Christians in their daily lives and certainly has never been followed by our government.
How seriously do Christians take this? Was Jesus just talking about certain situations or did he he really mean for this to apply to everything?
I know the Amish take this statement very seriously and because of it are exempted from serving in combat roles in the military.
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#185944 - 04/21/10 11:55 AM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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There is a scripture where Jesus says to sell your cloak and buy a sword, Ghoti, don't remember the exact location. So there are times when he says we must fight to defend ourselves. There are specific times we should follow the advice given in the scripture you quote but he addended with this statement too, 'he who lives by the sword will die by the sword!' So fighting is not to be taken lightly.
Paul
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#185953 - 04/21/10 01:58 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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There is a scripture where Jesus says to sell your cloak and buy a sword,
That was what he said the disciples must do after his death...in order to travel & spread his word. They would no longer have his protection.
We all pretty much have an idea of where an argument is headed. I think Christ expects us to turn the other cheek unless our lives, or those of family & friends is at stake.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#185963 - 04/21/10 03:29 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ghoti]
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Peaches
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Posts: 2617
Loc: In a peaceful, easy feeling...
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I know the Amish take this statement very seriously and because of it are exempted from serving in combat roles in the military.
you can add Quakers to this list
Peace, peaches
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#185964 - 04/21/10 03:31 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: Peaches]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I have to go with Flicka on this one.
Paul
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#185985 - 04/21/10 11:00 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Here's the actual quote about the sword thing:
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
But you have to consider the context, because he says next:
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
There were 12 disciples, so how can only 2 swords be enough for them all to defend themselves? And what does he mean by verse 37?
Right after this the soldiers led by Judas come to take him and this happens:
47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.
48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?
49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.
Isn't it possible that the only reason he told them to buy a sword may have been so the servant could get his ear cut off and Jesus could demonstrate this final act of healing? If that's the case then he wasn't telling the disciples to buy swords to defend themselves at all and the "turn the other cheek" command WAS meant to be applied in all situations.
Edited by ghoti (04/21/10 11:02 PM)
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#185999 - 04/22/10 10:00 AM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Luke 22:36 says let ..HE..which means any who have a mind too..which can mean all who don't have a sword and may need one. Maybe be prepared. I certainly do not think he added the sword just to demonstrate he could heal an ear when he had broght the dead back to life before and other greater healings.
Paul
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#186004 - 04/22/10 10:38 AM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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If he meant that everyone should get a sword wouldn't he have said "ALL among you" rather than "HE among you"? The way it's worded it seems clear that he was looking for just one sword, not swords for everyone.
Then when they showed him that they had 2 swords he said "that is enough". Emough for what? Certainly not enough to arm all 12 disciples.
To me this passage is NOT a call to all of his followers to take up arms since that would directly contradict the "turn the other cheek" command from the Sermon on the Mount.
Edited by ghoti (04/22/10 10:38 AM)
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#186014 - 04/22/10 02:08 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ghoti]
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flicka
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Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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If he meant that everyone should get a sword wouldn't he have said "ALL among you" rather than "HE among you"? The way it's worded it seems clear that he was looking for just one sword, not swords for everyone.
It seems to me that "and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one" suggests anyone who doesn't have a sword should buy one. Also, I think verse 35, just before telling them to buy swords: "And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing." suggests that he is talking about their mission of speading the gospel (which was being discussed in prior verses also).
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#186075 - 04/24/10 08:59 AM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: flicka]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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But if that were the case, why would he say "it is enough" when they showed him that they had TWO swords? That certainly wasn't sufficient to arm all the disciples to defend themselves from enemies.
In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus was clearly telling his followers to be total pacifists and to practice passive resistance to aggression. IMO the passage from Luke has been relied on as a modifier to the "turn the other cheek" command since that's incredibly difficult to follow in real-world situations.
If Christians really followed the "turn the other cheek" command to the letter their approach to life would certainly be far different than it is.
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#186077 - 04/24/10 03:07 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ghoti]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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I know this is purely my interpetation (which means I take liberties in imagining what was physically happening), but I think Jesus meant that two swords were sufficient for the evening at hand.
I still believe that he was talking about their mission when he said to sell your cloak & buy a sword. I don't think that was a signal for violence, rather for self defense during their travels from thieves & wild animals.
But, discussing this has jogged my memory of past bible studies and I think you may be right that taking a sword to the mount of Olives was absolutely necessary to fulfil prophecy in the book of Isaiah. Seems to me it wasn't for the purpose of demonstrating his healing powers, but to further enforce the "love your enemies" theme.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#186078 - 04/24/10 03:11 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ghoti]
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flicka
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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If Christians really followed the "turn the other cheek" command to the letter their approach to life would certainly be far different than it is.
It would be impossible to follow any command to the letter, but I know lots of Christians who demonstrate turning the other cheek for the most part.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#186079 - 04/24/10 03:45 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: flicka]
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shakey56
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Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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I've seen some pretty pretty amazing examples of Christians turning the other cheek. Forgiveness in situations where most would seek revenge.
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#186080 - 04/24/10 04:29 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: shakey56]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Agreed, although IMO it's just about the hardest of all the commands to follow. We'd all be better off if we'd try to be kinder to each other and not be too quick to respond with anger toward others.
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#186126 - 04/25/10 08:24 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ghoti]
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Paul I
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Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 7913
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And after the cheek is turned and slapped again what are your options?
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