#185943 - 04/21/10 10:34 AM
Turning the other cheek
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ghoti
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Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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This is from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount:
Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
The same comment is repeated nearly exactly in the Book of Luke. Jesus is clearly telling his followers to practice passive resistance rather than responding to attacks with a counter-attack. This is the approach that was used successfully by both Ghandi and Martin Luther King but appears to be largely ignored by most Christians in their daily lives and certainly has never been followed by our government.
How seriously do Christians take this? Was Jesus just talking about certain situations or did he he really mean for this to apply to everything?
I know the Amish take this statement very seriously and because of it are exempted from serving in combat roles in the military.
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#185944 - 04/21/10 11:55 AM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
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There is a scripture where Jesus says to sell your cloak and buy a sword, Ghoti, don't remember the exact location. So there are times when he says we must fight to defend ourselves. There are specific times we should follow the advice given in the scripture you quote but he addended with this statement too, 'he who lives by the sword will die by the sword!' So fighting is not to be taken lightly.
Paul
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#185953 - 04/21/10 01:58 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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flicka
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There is a scripture where Jesus says to sell your cloak and buy a sword,
That was what he said the disciples must do after his death...in order to travel & spread his word. They would no longer have his protection.
We all pretty much have an idea of where an argument is headed. I think Christ expects us to turn the other cheek unless our lives, or those of family & friends is at stake.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#185963 - 04/21/10 03:29 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ghoti]
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Peaches
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I know the Amish take this statement very seriously and because of it are exempted from serving in combat roles in the military.
you can add Quakers to this list
Peace, peaches
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#185964 - 04/21/10 03:31 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: Peaches]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Loc: Washington
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I have to go with Flicka on this one.
Paul
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#185985 - 04/21/10 11:00 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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Here's the actual quote about the sword thing:
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
But you have to consider the context, because he says next:
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
There were 12 disciples, so how can only 2 swords be enough for them all to defend themselves? And what does he mean by verse 37?
Right after this the soldiers led by Judas come to take him and this happens:
47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.
48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?
49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.
Isn't it possible that the only reason he told them to buy a sword may have been so the servant could get his ear cut off and Jesus could demonstrate this final act of healing? If that's the case then he wasn't telling the disciples to buy swords to defend themselves at all and the "turn the other cheek" command WAS meant to be applied in all situations.
Edited by ghoti (04/21/10 11:02 PM)
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#185999 - 04/22/10 10:00 AM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Loc: Washington
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Luke 22:36 says let ..HE..which means any who have a mind too..which can mean all who don't have a sword and may need one. Maybe be prepared. I certainly do not think he added the sword just to demonstrate he could heal an ear when he had broght the dead back to life before and other greater healings.
Paul
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#186004 - 04/22/10 10:38 AM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
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If he meant that everyone should get a sword wouldn't he have said "ALL among you" rather than "HE among you"? The way it's worded it seems clear that he was looking for just one sword, not swords for everyone.
Then when they showed him that they had 2 swords he said "that is enough". Emough for what? Certainly not enough to arm all 12 disciples.
To me this passage is NOT a call to all of his followers to take up arms since that would directly contradict the "turn the other cheek" command from the Sermon on the Mount.
Edited by ghoti (04/22/10 10:38 AM)
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#186014 - 04/22/10 02:08 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ghoti]
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flicka
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If he meant that everyone should get a sword wouldn't he have said "ALL among you" rather than "HE among you"? The way it's worded it seems clear that he was looking for just one sword, not swords for everyone.
It seems to me that "and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one" suggests anyone who doesn't have a sword should buy one. Also, I think verse 35, just before telling them to buy swords: "And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing." suggests that he is talking about their mission of speading the gospel (which was being discussed in prior verses also).
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#186075 - 04/24/10 08:59 AM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: flicka]
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ghoti
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Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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But if that were the case, why would he say "it is enough" when they showed him that they had TWO swords? That certainly wasn't sufficient to arm all the disciples to defend themselves from enemies.
In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus was clearly telling his followers to be total pacifists and to practice passive resistance to aggression. IMO the passage from Luke has been relied on as a modifier to the "turn the other cheek" command since that's incredibly difficult to follow in real-world situations.
If Christians really followed the "turn the other cheek" command to the letter their approach to life would certainly be far different than it is.
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#186077 - 04/24/10 03:07 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ghoti]
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flicka
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I know this is purely my interpetation (which means I take liberties in imagining what was physically happening), but I think Jesus meant that two swords were sufficient for the evening at hand.
I still believe that he was talking about their mission when he said to sell your cloak & buy a sword. I don't think that was a signal for violence, rather for self defense during their travels from thieves & wild animals.
But, discussing this has jogged my memory of past bible studies and I think you may be right that taking a sword to the mount of Olives was absolutely necessary to fulfil prophecy in the book of Isaiah. Seems to me it wasn't for the purpose of demonstrating his healing powers, but to further enforce the "love your enemies" theme.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#186078 - 04/24/10 03:11 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ghoti]
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flicka
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Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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If Christians really followed the "turn the other cheek" command to the letter their approach to life would certainly be far different than it is.
It would be impossible to follow any command to the letter, but I know lots of Christians who demonstrate turning the other cheek for the most part.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#186079 - 04/24/10 03:45 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: flicka]
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shakey56
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I've seen some pretty pretty amazing examples of Christians turning the other cheek. Forgiveness in situations where most would seek revenge.
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#186080 - 04/24/10 04:29 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: shakey56]
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ghoti
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Agreed, although IMO it's just about the hardest of all the commands to follow. We'd all be better off if we'd try to be kinder to each other and not be too quick to respond with anger toward others.
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#186126 - 04/25/10 08:24 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ghoti]
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Paul I
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And after the cheek is turned and slapped again what are your options?
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#186127 - 04/25/10 09:04 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: Paul I]
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shakey56
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The cynic in me says you had better spread your cheeks while you turn em, cuz you are gunna get screwed.
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#186247 - 04/27/10 12:17 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: shakey56]
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MerryA
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Jesus spoke in parables - I do not take "turning the other cheek" literally. Most importantly IMO, He is telling us we are no longer under the old law. These scriptures mean to me we should not seek revenge and physical violence is not a solution to an offense.
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#186254 - 04/27/10 02:15 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: MerryA]
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Paulwa_dup1
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Loc: Washington
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Merry is right but even greater than the turn the other cheek rule is the forgiveness of 70 times 7 times or when ever you are asked for forgiveness. But I think Jesus expects us to forgive even when it is not asked and we should not hold any grudges because we are all God's creation and veangeance is His, He says. So in the end if we forgive, God will set things aright in the end.
Paul
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#186286 - 04/27/10 07:32 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Linda252
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Posts: 475
Loc: Auburn, WA, USA
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Here is the UU take on this scripture passage. "To hit the right cheek with a fist would require the left hand, but in 1st century Jewish society, the left hand was only used for certain unclean tasks. The only possible way to hit the right cheek with the right hand was with a backhanded blow. As the biblical scholar Walter Wink points out, in Jesus' time, a backhanded blow was not a blow to injure, but to insult, humiliate, or degrade. It was not administered to an equal, but to an inferior. Masters backhanded slaves;....The point was to put somebody back in their place. However, by turning one's cheek, one makes it Impossible for an attacker to hit again. It is an act of defiance, a way of saying, "I am a human being, just like you. I am your equal.I won't take it anymore." When a large number of people begin behaving like this, Wink suggests, the result is social revolution..."
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#186298 - 04/27/10 09:52 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: Linda252]
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ghoti
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Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil : but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
IMO the key words are "that ye resist not evil". How can that be interpreted as anything other than a command to practice passive resistance against aggression?
Edited by ghoti (04/27/10 09:56 PM)
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#186302 - 04/27/10 11:52 PM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ghoti]
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MerryA
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Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil : but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. IMO the key words are "that ye resist not evil". How can that be interpreted as anything other than a command to practice passive resistance against aggression?
Jesus did not practice passive resistance IMO - prior to the time of execution, He would often leave an area to avoid a mob or to evade arrest. He spoke against the current religious leadership, not passively but in the temples, calling them hypocrites and angering them. Yet He asked forgiveness for those who murdered him. He forgave his disciples for abandoning Him.
To me "that ye resist not evil" is saying we should not reply to anger with anger. Taken in contest with all of Chapter 5, there is much more to the text IMO.
Taken in context with the beginning of Matthew 5 - the Beatitudes:
1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
He tells us plainly here the attitudes and behaviors that will be blessed. The scriptures following the Beatitudes explains these are new laws, replacing the old law of Moses, and how they are different.
IMO the lessons of Matthew 5 can all be found in the Beatitudes.
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#186310 - 04/28/10 08:43 AM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: MerryA]
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ghoti
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Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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OK, but by "passive resistance" I meant the forms of non-violent protests mounted by Ghandi and Martin Luther King. In that sense "passive" doesn't mean that you just ignore evil but rather that you speak out against it strongly while renouncing violence in your protests. IMO both Dr. King and Ghandi used Jesus as a model.
Jesus certainly spoke out against wrongdoing but he never advocated or allowed violence among his followers. IMO that's what he meant by "turning the other cheek".
Edited by ghoti (04/28/10 08:44 AM)
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#186913 - 05/17/10 05:19 AM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ghoti]
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ævory
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 9657
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This is from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount: Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
The same comment is repeated nearly exactly in the Book of Luke. Jesus is clearly telling his followers to practice passive resistance rather than responding to attacks with a counter-attack. This is the approach that was used successfully by both Ghandi and Martin Luther King but appears to be largely ignored by most Christians in their daily lives and certainly has never been followed by our government.
Our Father, Who Art in Heaven, I thank thee for this...that neither Ghandi nor Martin Luther King ever ran nor became elected to the presidency of the United States of America.
AMEN
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#186915 - 05/17/10 05:32 AM
Re: Turning the other cheek
[Re: ævory]
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MerryA
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Loc: Tennessee
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That is why we have separation of Church and State in the US. 
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