#185654 - 04/14/10 02:52 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: ghoti]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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Many other countries (for example Japan) have a two-tiered system that is much more efficient. They have schools like ours for college-bound students but the majority of kids go to trade-based schools beginning at the 9th grade level where they will study carpentry, auto mechanics, plumbing, heating and air conditioning, etc. to prepare them for those careers.
This makes so much sense. I think it would also keep most kids from getting in trouble. Learning a trade can be very rewarding.
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#185656 - 04/14/10 03:03 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: ghoti]
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ghoti
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Lazer, those numbers are also deceptive since the benefits given to teachers have also been steadily eroding. In most places there is a significant co-pay to carry the insurance and retirement benefits now where in the past they were fully funded by the school system. The length of school years has also increased by up to 12 additional days in many places.
Those things aren't reflected in just looking at salaries.
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#185657 - 04/14/10 03:09 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: Greg]
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lazer
Member
Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 7672
Loc: a world of my own...
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id say teachers pay is maybe a bit low only cuz of unruly bratty students
trade schools to me are the way to go...... if thats the field u want
medical transcribing, secretary, plumbing, mechanic, dental hygeinist, and so many more, some under a year, most under 2
but college education is always best on job applications
sadly i know tons of college graduates that cant find work, or end up working at a job less than thier qualifications
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#185658 - 04/14/10 03:13 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: ghoti]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Greg, I made $25,000/year after 5 years experience as a chemical engineer and less than $12,000/year after 5 years of teaching. Both required a bachelor's degree and both provided similar health care and retirement packages.
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#185659 - 04/14/10 03:16 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: ghoti]
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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Ghotti, I realize you're union and I have an incorporated small business so we come at this from two different angles. I suggest you check out the current teacher/union/cost NJ dispute issues currently getting ink to understand where I am coming from. Teaching, at least in Canada, is still a better than average way to combine fair renumeration plus job satisfaction type of profession.
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#185660 - 04/14/10 03:26 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: lazer]
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cbal-craig
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 17675
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youre right, not the greatest pay, but its steady work, insurance, a pension,.. 3 months a year off and vacation days
Wrong.
salaries depend on area, but the average is $30k a year and to me thats not to bad
Yea it's great if you have a high school diploma. I made 30k when I was 22 yrs/old in the mid 70s. Teachers get screwed by the states they work for and they have to take care of a bunch of spoiled little brats who have NO parenting.. There are schools in Dade County where english is not to be heard.....it's all spanish. Last time I checked this was America.
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#185661 - 04/14/10 03:31 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: ghoti]
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cbal-craig
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 17675
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Greg, I made $25,000/year after 5 years experience as a chemical engineer and less than $12,000/year after 5 years of teaching. Both required a bachelor's degree and both provided similar health care and retirement packages.
That sounds much more like it. Thank you for being a good teacher ghoti....and for all those years !
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#185662 - 04/14/10 03:43 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: Greg]
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lazer
Member
Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 7672
Loc: a world of my own...
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everyone fights for more money greg
a quick lookup shows new jersey teachers make between $30k and 60k
sounds fair to me,
the dispute i see is a cutback on insurance/premiums, which is a taxpayer issue
remember, teachers, along with many other jobs is a taxpayer thing, and thats the reason cost is important
maybe only parents should pay taxes for schools, lol
ive heard some long term city workers make $50-60k a year because they been there so long.......
sorry, i think taxpayer city jobs and situtions should have a salary cap of say $45k....... no public works road guy is worth over $40k, who cares if they were there 30 years,
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#185666 - 04/14/10 04:22 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: lazer]
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lazer
Member
Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 7672
Loc: a world of my own...
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florida is trying to end teacher tenure so they can get bad teachers out
they said most teachers only got a satisfactory grade
they wanna base it on quality, not how long u been there
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#185668 - 04/14/10 04:27 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: lazer]
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YosemiteSam
Member
Registered: 05/20/00
Posts: 5386
Loc: No. Calif. (SF Bay Area)
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Due to the concept of local control, it's not possible to make comparisons (state to state or district to district), but we can look at some of the most unionized areas to see what's coming if tenure rules aren't changed and reductions of the power weilded by teacher unions.
New York may be the most extreme example, but California and New Jersey aren't far behind.
Here are some articles about how NY wastes $65 Million per year;
NY Daily News , The New Yorker , The Huffington Post.
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#185673 - 04/14/10 04:47 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: YosemiteSam]
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lazer
Member
Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 7672
Loc: a world of my own...
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wow sam.......
if your not teaching, u should be fired
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#185675 - 04/14/10 04:52 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: YosemiteSam]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Tenure is not a guarantee of a lifetime job. It only guarantees that the administration must follow due process in order to get rid of a teacher and that they have the right of union representation to defend them.
Teachers without tenure can be fired at any time and the administration doesn't even have to give a reason for their dismissal. They also have no rights to be defended by the union.
Tenure is totally misunderstood by the general public. All it guarantees is fair treatment and that there has to be a valid reason for firing you.
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#185676 - 04/14/10 04:56 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: Greg]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Ghotti, I realize you're union and I have an incorporated small business so we come at this from two different angles. I suggest you check out the current teacher/union/cost NJ dispute issues currently getting ink to understand where I am coming from. Teaching, at least in Canada, is still a better than average way to combine fair renumeration plus job satisfaction type of profession.
Greg, here in the US it is very difficult for a teacher to afford to raise a family, drive a decent car, and own a home unless they are very frugal with their money and/or have a spouse who works.
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#185677 - 04/14/10 05:07 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: ghoti]
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YosemiteSam
Member
Registered: 05/20/00
Posts: 5386
Loc: No. Calif. (SF Bay Area)
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Tenure is not a guarantee of a lifetime job. It only guarantees that the administration must follow due process in order to get rid of a teacher and that they have the right of union representation to defend them.
Teachers without tenure can be fired at any time and the administration doesn't even have to give a reason for their dismissal. They also have no rights to be defended by the union.
Tenure is totally misunderstood by the general public. All it guarantees is fair treatment and that there has to be a valid reason for firing you.
Calif. may be different from Mich., but it's virtually impossible to fire a tenured teacher in CA. Article
ETA: Another article
Edited by YosemiteSam (04/14/10 05:10 PM)
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