#185616 - 04/13/10 02:43 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: paradocs]
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lazer
Member
Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 7672
Loc: a world of my own...
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having family and friends who are teachers, its funny how education standards are higher or lower depending on locations thru the country
i could never understand why there isnt a same standard everything across th board....
although they dont admit it, teachers are 'pushed' to teach and get them out of school
i know a former teacher who quit because the kids obviously had no family guidance, never did the work, never really learned nothing, flunked tests, and was told by school to move them on even tho they were literally stupid
she did everything, called the parents, who in most cases told her it was the schools job to teach, not them, sad huh?
unless the kids have some mental problem, i blame the parents
personally i believe unruly kids should be sent to a special discipline school
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#185618 - 04/13/10 03:36 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: lazer]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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personally i believe unruly kids should be sent to a special discipline school
A lot of times that is a parochial school. I never got spanked, but did have chalk thrown at me a couple of times.
I think the key to education is to go back to small neighborhood schools where grades 1-3 & 4-6 are taught in the same classrooms. Teachers should also be able to apply some forms of discipline without fear of losing their jobs.
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"A lot of things were acceptable--until we stopped accepting it." -- Al Sharpton '12
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#185623 - 04/13/10 04:18 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: flicka]
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lazer
Member
Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 7672
Loc: a world of my own...
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i know some teachers who said they fear kids saying something bad just to get teacher in trouble
im all for cameras in classrooms and hallways
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#185640 - 04/14/10 10:01 AM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: lazer]
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kan5a5
Member
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 13311
Loc: kan5a5
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schools have jacked themselves up.
they've jockied for a postition such that, if a child learns, does well, excells, the school is standing by to take credit but THE MOMENT the opposite occurs, it is the child's or his or her parent's fault. schools can ONLY do good and make the right choices. if you don't believe me, challenge a school's call on even the most insignificant issue. such a stance can only breed resentment and lack of support.
schools claim to prepare children for tomorrow but cling to old ways longer than any other institution could and remain useful.
slow to implement computer use, slow to depart from lecture style of education established in the 1800's, slow to change period, schools have contributed greatly to their own bad rap.
the stupidest thing schools have done over the past several decades is their switch defined by: 'well...if we can't beat your child whenever and for whatever reason we deem warranted, we'll come up with consequences that punish the parents.'
i never really hated school until i had children attend one.
Edited by kan5a5 (04/14/10 10:02 AM)
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#185642 - 04/14/10 12:11 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: kan5a5]
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lazer
Member
Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 7672
Loc: a world of my own...
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i disagree with most kan5 said.......
kan5, your words prove my point, your blaming someone else, the school
each class is 50 min long, they do the best they can
many parents think of schools as babysitters, and think morals and everything else should be taught, and blame schools for alot
if parents listened and discipined their kids everytime school called, education would be better
if parents followed through from homework to discipline, taking responsibility, kids would learn more
my dad was a teacher and vice principal..... he said there is lots of parents that just dont care to take time with their kids...... and i heard same thing from other teachers i know
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#185643 - 04/14/10 12:42 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: lazer]
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flicka
Member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 24616
Loc: SLO County, CA - 66.122.77.142
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kan5, your words prove my point, your blaming someone else, the school
Actually, Terry makes an interesting point with this statement:
they've jockied for a postition such that, if a child learns, does well, excells, the school is standing by to take credit but THE MOMENT the opposite occurs, it is the child's or his or her parent's fault.
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#185644 - 04/14/10 12:50 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: kan5a5]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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As a former HS teacher, I see two key philosophical problems with our current education system:
1. The classical egalitarian concept - Our high schools are based on the idea of preparing every student for every possibility, since young people often have no idea what they want to do in the future. Because of that we require every student to take classes in English literature and composition, history, government, economics, algebra, geometry, physical science, biology, a foreign language, etc. That way if you decide to be a doctor, engineer, lawyer, or whatever you've got the groundwork set for any possibility.
It's an inefficient system since most kids will end up in careers where they'll never use or need to know most of that stuff. Many other countries (for example Japan) have a two-tiered system that is much more efficient. They have schools like ours for college-bound students but the majority of kids go to trade-based schools beginning at the 9th grade level where they will study carpentry, auto mechanics, plumbing, heating and air conditioning, etc. to prepare them for those careers.
2. The lecture system with massed classrooms - Each teacher deals with 25-30 students for an hour at a time and has 6 of these groups each day. That means each teacher has 150-180 students to grade and monitor, which makes one-on- one interactions nearly impossible and pretty much requires lecture as the main method of instruction. Teachers barely know their students and it’s extremely difficult to give them individual help.
The only advantage to this system is that it's cheap since you need very few teachers for the number of students. It would be much more effective to have more individualized learning with more one-on-one interactions, but that would mean smaller classes and that would increase costs since you’d need more teachers.
Our schools would improve dramatically by changing these two philosophies but costs would increase, so it’s never going to happen. How many people these days would willingly pay more in taxes to get better schools?
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#185645 - 04/14/10 01:16 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: ghoti]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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I had an exchange student from Japan years ago and he was amazed at our system. Only about 15-20% of their population attends high schools like ours and those kids are highly motivated so discipline problems are nearly non-existent.
Also, their high school teachers only teach 3-4 classes a day and spend the rest of their day grading papers, planning lessons, and working individually with students that need extra help.
He couldn't believe how disrespectful and unmotivated most students were in our schools.
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#185646 - 04/14/10 01:25 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: ghoti]
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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fuk the cya attitude, a good teacher can get through to a student despite the current state of the system or a motivational parent/mentor can also make the difference, it has been shown to work with the turn around in NYC both with the charter and public school systems
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#185649 - 04/14/10 01:42 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: Greg]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Yup, and to accomplish that you need teachers who are highly motivated themselves, have excellent people skills, and know their subject matter very well. Trouble is those same people also do very well working in the corporate world where starting salaries are significantly higher than teachers, you get treated with respect, and good job performance leads to rapid promotions.
How do we get those people to commit to lower pay with zero chance for career advancement in the teaching profession?
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#185650 - 04/14/10 01:53 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: Greg]
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lazer
Member
Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 7672
Loc: a world of my own...
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teachers are there to form the young mind, teach it to reason, memory, figure out stuff, and to give some guidance and structure
the rest is the parents responsibilty......
kids dont fear things no more
think about it, a teachers has less than 20 hours a month to teach a class........ 5 days a week, 50-55 minutes day..... so basically 19 hours a month to teach math, science, history..... and thats only if a teacher uses every SECOND......
in my day, teachers broke up fights and got pissed out loud at kids. but today they dont or fear of losing jobs
parents stick up for kids instead of believing authority figures
school now should be 12 months a year with some week and maybe 2 week vacations, no 3 month summers, lol
video cameras would take all question out of any situation, student or teacher....... heck, kids use video phones so why not
Edited by lazer (04/14/10 01:59 PM)
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#185651 - 04/14/10 02:14 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: ghoti]
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Greg
Member
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 10000
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why do people choose to be farmers? it isn't for the money
I don't buy the low pay and no professional advancement line, my first wife is a teacher, my son's girlfriend's parents are both teachers (the father was able to retire in his 50's). The corporate world's yardstick for job satisfaction is completly different. If that is the comparison pay-wise to teaching than you have no business being a teacher. The unions often do teaching no favour as was the recent demonstration in Albany NY in the loss of funding to charter schools or the huge teacher layoffs in NJ due to unions refusal to spread out funding shortfalls and health care costs over their membership.
btw my first wife did not have the high level reqirements you mentioned when entering teaching, but she grew to become a good teacher because she liked the work and the school adminstration was effective.
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#185652 - 04/14/10 02:40 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: Greg]
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lazer
Member
Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 7672
Loc: a world of my own...
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youre right, not the greatest pay, but its steady work, insurance, a pension,.. 3 months a year off and vacation days
salaries depend on area, but the average is $30k a year and to me thats not to bad
State Starting Salary Average Salary 10-year increase Salary Comfort Index
Alabama $31,368 $40,347 28.9% 13
Alaska $38,657 $53,553 7.9% 30
Arizona $30,404 $44,672 37.5% 35
Arkansas $28,784 $42,768 44.8% 11
California $35,760 $59,825 41.6% 44
Colorado $35,086 $44,439 25.7% 12
Connecticut $39,259 $59,304 18.0% 22
Delaware $35,854 $54,264 33.9% 2
Florida $33,427 $43,302 29.9% 26
Georgia $34,442 $48,300 42.1% 3
Hawaii $35,816 $49,292 37.7% 50
Idaho $27,500 $41,150 33.2% 33
Illinois $37,500 $58,686 43.4% 1
Indiana $30,844 $47,255 25.4% 8
Iowa $27,284 $41,083 26.9% 31
Kansas $27,840 $41,467 28.1% 21
Kentucky $30,619 $42,592 28.8% 15
Louisiana $31,298 $40,029 45.4% 20
Maine $26,643 $40,737 23.9% 47
Maryland $37,125 $54,333 32.0% 37
Massachusetts $35,421 $56,369 35.0% 34
Michigan $35,557 $54,739 16.9% 4
Minnesota $31,532 $48,489 31.3% 10
Mississippi $28,200 $40,576 46.5% 19
Missouri $29,281 $40,462 25.2% 16
Montana $25,318 $39,832 35.6% 46
Nebraska $29,303 $40,382 28.2% 17
Nevada $27,957 $44,426 22.8% 45
New Hampshire $28,279 $45,263 26.5% 48
New Jersey $38,408 $58,156 19.3% 36
New Mexico $33,730 $41,637 43.2% 29
New York $37,321 $57,354 19.2% 38
North Carolina $27,944 $43,922 44.4% 23
North Dakota $24,872 $37,764 40.0% 43
Ohio $33,671 $50,314 33.0% 6
Oklahoma $29,174 $38,772 36.5% 18
Oregon $33,699 $50,044 26.0% 14
Pennsylvania $34,976 $54,027 17.2% 5
Rhode Island $33,815 $54,730 31.0% 42
South Carolina $28,568 $43,011 36.0% 24
South Dakota $26,111 $34,709 31.7% 41
Tennessee $32,369 $42,537 28.4% 9
Texas $33,775 $41,744 32.9% 7
Utah $26,521 $40,007 30.8% 39
Vermont $26,461 $46,622 28.5% 49
Virginia $33,200 $43,823 26.0% 25
Washington $30,974 $46,326 22.4% 32
West Virginia $26,704 $38,284 19.1% 40
Wisconsin $25,222 $46,390 21.5% 28
Wyoming $31,481 $43,255 37.0% 27
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Memo: Don't get p*ssed at my OPINION, cuz thats all it is, my OPINION.........
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#185653 - 04/14/10 02:45 PM
Re: Schools should increase rigor
[Re: Greg]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Greg, I gave up a job as a chemical engineer that paid $25,000 in the mid-1970's to switch to a teaching job that paid $9,000 so I've been there. Since my retirement I'm still doing tutoring free of charge nearly every afternoon. I never looked back and loved what I was doing, but how many do that?
I saw many of the best young people in teaching leave to take jobs in sales or the corporate world because they couldn't make it on a teacher's pay. In the schools I taught in if you were a beginning teacher with a homemaker wife and a child your pay was low enough that your child qualified for the free lunch program at school.
Motivated teachers don't do it for the money. They do it because they love to see the light of understanding and enthusiasm brighten a child's face, and knowing they are helping to make the world better.
If every teacher had that motivation things would be wonderful, but they are human. Many are in it only for job security, having summers off, and the good benefits and are only willing to do the minimum effort to scrape by.
Great people produce wonderful results and lazy slugs are drags on the system, but that's true of every organization. Is it really fair or reasonable to expect the teaching profession to be any different?
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