#151043 - 04/22/09 07:44 PM
Re: Why do we backslide?
[Re: Davyd]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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To me Davyd that is moving Jesus out of first place to start with and pushing Him to a secondary role.
I wish you best fortune on your quest. It is not anything I should attack nor should I attack any mans views. I can only give my view. Every person must seek his religious views and path toward God with fear and trembling and in the finality to stand on that view.
Paul
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#151060 - 04/23/09 09:19 AM
Re: Why do we backslide?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Paulwa, with all due respect to your beliefs, I am bothered by the way Christians have made a cult figure out of the man/god Jesus. IMO there is only one creator and I feel that I have a personal connection with him.
I deeply admire the teachings of Jesus as portrayed in the 4 Gospels and the Book of James but feel that he was carrying a message for us from the creator. IMO Christianity has elevated him to a position of supremacy since most prayers and homage are directed to him rather than to the actual creator.
IMO a personal connection with the creator and the effort to live your life by the Golden Rule are the true tests of faith, and those are the tenets I try to follow. You may recall that Jesus himself said essentially the same thing when asked which of the commandments were the greatest. I firmly believe in a supreme being but feel that Jesus was his messenger rather than his earthly manifestation.
I realize this is at odds with your beliefs and respect your right to believe as you wish, and I would hope for the same in return.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#151068 - 04/23/09 10:23 AM
Re: Why do we backslide?
[Re: ghoti]
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shakey56
Member
Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1889
Loc: where the wild roadrunners roa...
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I realize this is at odds with your beliefs and respect your right to believe as you wish, and I would hope for the same in return.
Good luck. You are going to need it 
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.
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#151097 - 04/23/09 08:42 PM
Re: Why do we backslide?
[Re: shakey56]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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If you study the bible there is all the evidence in the world that Jesus was at the creation of the world. He is called the word and God spoke the word and created wioth His Holy Spirit all that is. Jesus is God. The father Himself called Jesus God. That is because the three are God. Kind of a difficult concept to grasp. But yes I believe Jesus was God incarnate in human flesh. God is a Spirit and I think Jesus is the body He took and placed himself into as Jesus. God is our Father and He sent Jesus to rescue mankind from their sins. They are three in one. I feel very sure that the bible explains this fully. God the father has a covenant with Israel by way of the patriarchs, Abraham, Moses and so on. Jesus His son has a blood covenant with christians and are His church. We will all be brought together in eternity.
I know you feel you have contact with God the Father and you very well may but you must not place Jesus lower than the Godhead. Jesus is God and He will be the judge of mankind at the great white throne judgement. The final judging. It is only by His sacrifice that we are saved. There just is not any other way unless you are a devout Jew. In the end all the Jews will call Him their Messiah too.
Paul
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#151100 - 04/23/09 09:42 PM
Re: Why do we backslide?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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First of all, let me say that I'm not trying to undermine anyone;s faith but rather explain my own beliefs. IMO Jesus shows serious doubts about his own relationship with God at several points in the Gospels.
Take the the following passage for example:
Matthew 26:[36] Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
[37] And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.
[38] Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
[39] And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
IMO he is clearly speaking as a man to his God in this passage and understandingly asking that he be spared the ordeal of a painful death. If he is God and knows it, why would he bother to even ask? Wouldn't he already know the answer?
He then goes on to pray a second and then a third time asking that he be spared the ordeal but gets the same answer and is finally resigned to it. IMO these are the words and actions of a man carrying a message and burden from God, and not those of someone free of doubt.
Later in Matthew 27 when Jesus is dying on the cross, his final words are "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Are these the words of God himself or of a man who still has doubts right to the moment of death? IMO they are again the words of a man carrying a message and required by God to undergo a horrible ordeal but not what you would expect if he knew he was actually God.
For these and a variety of other reasons I find that I can accept the message delivered by Jesus, but I can't bring myself to believe that he was God since I don't believe he was totally convinced of it himself. As always, I fully respect the right of others to believe differently and am not trying to convince anyone to believe as I do.
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#151104 - 04/23/09 10:09 PM
Re: Why do we backslide?
[Re: ghoti]
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Paul I
Member
Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 7913
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As the Catholics would say, "the Trinity is a mystery". And if taken in its usual meaning indeed it is.
_________________________
"...only the shadow knows"
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#151108 - 04/23/09 11:59 PM
Re: Why do we backslide?
[Re: Paul I]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I think in some ways God the father knows more than His son. As for the time of Jesus return for the rapture, Jesus says no man knows the day nor the hour, not even the angels but my Father in heaven only. So this tells me that in authority God the Father is superior because God the son worships Him and endeavors only to please His Father. But there are scriptures where God the Father calls Jesus God also. I think Jesus knew what was expected of Him in the crucifiction but the human side of Him asked His father that if there was any other way to please keep Him from the crucifiction. But the sweating great drops of blood was part of the suffering Jesus willingly went through to perform His duty to His Father.
When He asked God why He had forsaken Him on the cross it was because God turned away from the huge burden of sins hanging on Him, our sins. God could not directly look upon the pain His son was going through in dying for mankind and the evil man was bestowing on His son.
Jesus is God and sits at the right hand of His Father in heaven on His own throne of power.
Paul
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#151121 - 04/24/09 07:04 AM
Re: Why do we backslide?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Davyd
Member
Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 4112
Loc: People's Republic of Amerika
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To me Davyd that is moving Jesus out of first place to start with and pushing Him to a secondary role.
I wish you best fortune on your quest. It is not anything I should attack nor should I attack any mans views. I can only give my view. Every person must seek his religious views and path toward God with fear and trembling and in the finality to stand on that view.
Paul
Morning Paul,
I think maybe you've misunderstood what I was saying. Earlier you had said that in order to be saved you must have faith in Jesus. And then speculated about how those who have never heard of Him will get an opportunity to accept/reject Him. What I'm saying is there is no need to speculate on such matters. The Bible seems quite clear that we will be judged based on faith(belief + action) and that no man is without an excuse. Why does the Bible say we have no excuse? Not because Jesus will pull some magic trick, rather it's straight forward and says that everything we need to know to have faith is already present. But that's only for those who have not heard about Jesus. Does that somehow lower the importance of Jesus? Not at all! Knowing about Jesus is a tremendous bonus. There's no need to have hope that God will act like all those prior to Jesus arrival. He has and we know how! God IS faithful! And with that knowledge there also comes great responsibility. To know and not act, is sinful.
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Blu E-CigsCleaner, Cheaper, Safer
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#151142 - 04/24/09 10:49 AM
Re: Why do we backslide?
[Re: Davyd]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I am having difficulty understanding what you are saying, Davyd. To me Jesus is primal in salvation and without Him their is no salvation unless you are a Jew. Before Jesus God dealt with mankind on a different level. He attributed to Abraham righteousness because of his faith in God and many other of the prophets and patriarchs. But since Jesus was sent to save the world, John 3:16 there is no other way to salvation but Him. Even in the end all the Jews will accept Jesus as the Messiah and recognize Him as their salvation. Jesus is the same as God to me from the scriptures. He is the man/God side of the Father with the Holy Spirit too. God is a spirit because He says we must worship Him in spirit and truth. At the rapture we will be given the same body as Jesus now has, the eternal young body. God I don't think has a body but probably can appear as a body as He wishes. There is much that He will reveal to us when we are all together. There is the Holy spirit and it speaks of the seven Spirits of God, I think they are one as the Holy Spirit. These are concepts that we have trouble understanding. I see two levels of people but also equal. The church of God, the Jews and Israel and the church of Jesus Christ with His disciples and followers. But they will be brought together in the end. I think from what I can gather from the scriptures that Gods church will remain human and physical and will use the trees of life lining the river of life to maintain themslves, it seems from the scriptures and they may even continue with progeny or births of children in eternity. The church of Jesus will not have progeny but will be as the angels and overseers that run the government of God and other occupations. It will be very exciting when this all comes about. we know so little of it all.
Paul
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#151192 - 04/25/09 11:13 AM
Re: Why do we backslide?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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ghoti
Member
Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 8469
Loc: Ishpeming, MI 75.128.229.255
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Paulwa, I don't find your answers compelling and remain convinced that Jesus was a man carrying a message for us from the creator rather than God himself incarnate. IMO he shows significant doubt and uncertainty about his position and role. These are the actions of a man rather than a god.
I've also never understood the Christian concept of God being a trinity of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost yet still being only one deity. IMO Christianity has made Jesus the central figure of the three since nearly all sermons and prayers seem to focus on him while largely ignoring the other two.
I know you base your beliefs on the bible, but I find it so full of contradictions and allegory that I can't accept it as the true word of God. Of course it claims to be, but so do nearly all holy books of every other religion.
My religious beliefs are very simple. I firmly believe that a supreme being exists and that he sent Jesus a message to deliver to us. That message is that we should be humble and respectful before the creator and to treat each other with kindness and compassion. Those are the tenets that I try my best to live by.
I reject organized religion since IMO dogma and ritual dominate them and tend to blur and dilute their message. I prefer to simply communicate directly with the creator without outside distractions and have found it works for me.
Edited by ghoti (04/25/09 11:23 AM)
_________________________
Feisty survivors populate this site. Avoid controversies unless you have a very thick skin.
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#151195 - 04/25/09 12:30 PM
Re: Why do we backslide?
[Re: ghoti]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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Well the Holy Spirit lives in christians who accept Jesus and brings His words to our hearts and minds and teaches us to live in Gods commandments. Jesus, God calls the Word and with the Word God created all that exists. Man is made as God in image by being body, spirit and mind that forms the total and makes man a living soul. The bible is the written word of God to mankind. We stand or fall on what we make of it. You know christians do not recognize any other writings as the words of God. This new found bible code to many just proves that it is Gods word. I know some say they can find codes in secular works but it is not even vsaguely as accuratye or the same as the bible codes. I think God piut the codes in there and wauited till man developed the computer so he could find it and read it. God placed mankind here on earth and then set boundaries where no man could travel very far away from in his life time or else man would set sail to find God and with the knowledge ability of God in his head he just might continue till he did reach God but the boundaries kept man at home where he was made to be. So then one day God will come to us when everything is set aright. Time is nothing to god but it is another boundary for mankind.
Paul
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#151217 - 04/26/09 11:48 PM
Re: Why do we backslide?
[Re: Paulwa_dup1]
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Davyd
Member
Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 4112
Loc: People's Republic of Amerika
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I am having difficulty understanding what you are saying, Davyd. To me Jesus is primal in salvation and without Him their is no salvation unless you are a Jew. Before Jesus God dealt with mankind on a different level. He attributed to Abraham righteousness because of his faith in God and many other of the prophets and patriarchs. But since Jesus was sent to save the world, John 3:16 there is no other way to salvation but Him.
Abraham is exactly what I'm talking about here Paul. Even Abraham wouldn't have made it into Heaven had it not been for Jesus, even tho he didn't know Jesus or how God would make it possible at the time. He trusted God.
_________________________
Blu E-CigsCleaner, Cheaper, Safer
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#151241 - 04/27/09 11:52 AM
Re: Why do we backslide?
[Re: Davyd]
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Paulwa_dup1
Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 4951
Loc: Washington
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I agree with that Davyd. As long as Jesus is the final focus of salvation.
Paul
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#154069 - 06/20/09 06:27 AM
Re: Why do we backslide?
[Re: ghoti]
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Robbo96b
Member
Registered: 12/11/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Sunny California
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Paulwa, with all due respect to your beliefs, I am bothered by the way Christians have made a cult figure out of the man/god Jesus. IMO there is only one creator and I feel that I have a personal connection with him.
I deeply admire the teachings of Jesus as portrayed in the 4 Gospels and the Book of James but feel that he was carrying a message for us from the creator. IMO Christianity has elevated him to a position of supremacy since most prayers and homage are directed to him rather than to the actual creator.
IMO a personal connection with the creator and the effort to live your life by the Golden Rule are the true tests of faith, and those are the tenets I try to follow. You may recall that Jesus himself said essentially the same thing when asked which of the commandments were the greatest. I firmly believe in a supreme being but feel that Jesus was his messenger rather than his earthly manifestation.
I realize this is at odds with your beliefs and respect your right to believe as you wish, and I would hope for the same in return.
How much of the New Testament have you studied? what versions of the Bible have you read? Understanding what you've read may help us to understand why you believe what you do. Who do you listen to? Do you have a community with plenty of folks you can trust that show you in the Bible examples and written proof of what they belief rather than just tell you what to think. Or what they think. I try to remain teachable while at the same time not being too afable, or even gullible. I'm never afraid to go right up to the pastor ask any question I have. I prefer talking to the oldest members of my church as well as reading books written by very experienced people. I take it all with a grain of salt and most of all read and study the Bible for myself.
I'm positive that meditation is the very best way to get a stronger connection with God. I'm not sure I'll understand the nature of the relationship between God the Father, Jesus our Lord and Savior, and the holy Ghost. But it’s a wonderful thing when I'm deep in meditation, without thought, worry, or question. Just deep in a peaceful place that cannot be described with my vocabulary. Learn to meditate by doing it. Really study the Bible and ask many different people for help in understanding it. I shy away from people who want to tell me what it says as opposed to the people who share how they learned what it says. I hope you see the difference. Experience is the best teacher, and overconfidence leads to mistakes.
The best advice my dad ever gave me was to pray before I read the scriptures. I also pray before I meditate, every time I meditate. That connection is the most important factor in my happiness and contentment in this life.
_________________________
"The entire law is summed up in a single command: Love your neighbor as yourself"
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#154070 - 06/20/09 06:44 AM
Re: Why do we backslide?
[Re: cronnie36]
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Robbo96b
Member
Registered: 12/11/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Sunny California
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Cronnie36
I can relate to the unhappiness you write about. In my case it comes down to meditation, prayer, and when the solution to my current problem whatever it may be pops into my thick skull, to just do it.
On backsliding, I think it usually comes down to willingness with me. All the problems in life that I can think of have the same solution. I simply need to obey the gift of the holy ghost. That gut feeling about what the right thing to do is. Maybe that's God helping us remember the lessons we've learned through countless mistakes, trials, and tests. I'm often baffled myself when I make the same mistakes again and again. It comes down to endurance, commitment, and willingness to always depend on God for our strength. Remember that we are forgiven and we become much more willing to do what is best for us. As opposed to creating our own suffering by holding on to our own guilt, a form of selfishness, and refusing to admit we simply made a mistake, and moving on. Jesus was crucified for us. We don’t need to crucify ourselves. Participate In the joy of service and the happiness of living as part of the body of Christ. Procrastination is the easiest way to make myself miserable. Just keep moving foreword. Nice n slow n easy.
Join the human race, reject all that separates you. Be satisfied with the part you have been given to play and just go out and play that part.
It's as simple as getting up when the alarm goes off in the morning. I still hit the snooze bar from time to time and pay a price for that, but I need to remember that I'm the one making me pay that price, not God. Accepting Jesus makes the getting up, brushing myself off and getting back into the game of life so much easier. It comes down to faith in the magic that only God truly understands. Our job is to have faith that the magic does indeed exist.
So I guess backsliding is just part of being in a temporal body, Maybe we need to go through this in order to become humble enough to completely surrender to the loving God that made us. Follow Jesus' example and let the holy ghost guide us to be of service, and truly happy, today, tomorrow, and for eternity.
_________________________
"The entire law is summed up in a single command: Love your neighbor as yourself"
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