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Mark 16 in the New Testament recounts the resurrection of Jesus and His appearance to several of His followers. His disciples didn't believe those who claimed to have seen Him. In verse 14, Jesus appears to the disciples and tells them off for their unbelief in what they were told and gives them their mission. Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. ---- Jesus then tells them the key to salvation: 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. ---- Okay, I've got that part covered and have been on the side of belief as long as I can remember. I call myself a believer, but apparently, I've fallen short. Once again, I have rushed past an important part of believing and I'm afraid it's too late for me to fit the description. How do I know this? Christ's own words in this chapter of Mark have pointed it out to me. Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. ---- Obviously, I am NOT a believer. What now? |
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I am sorry to hear this. |
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Ronnie, do you cast out devils, speak with new tongues, handle snakes, or heal the sick? Personally, I can't even drink much alcohol without it hurting me, much less anything more deadly than that. |
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I have cast devils from me by calling on the name of Jesus. I don't guess that I have ever drank anything poisonous except for alcohol and at that time I wasn't exactly a firm believer. I haven't picked up any snakes. They give me the creeps. |
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Does that mean you are not a 'believer' also, or do you think these verses are not describing the average believer? |
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The key word is 'believe'. God gives us a measure of faith. Jesus said if we have the faith the size of a mustard seed we can say to a mountain to be cast into the sea. So accordijng to what Jesus spokeof faith is not a fixed commodity and I think it is pretty equivalent to belief also. Thomas the doubter would be first to say this. But Jesus did send all His disciples out to do just the things that He mentioned and they cast out devils, healed the sick, Paul was bitten by a poisonous serpent and did not die and I am sure somewhere in the bible someone drank a poisonous substance and did not die. Jesus I think did not mean every christian would have the same level of faith and belief but the greater faith and belief He said came not but by prayer and fasting. In other words the dedication of that person and the total time spenmt walking with God gave those great miriacles to happen in their lives. It seems to me that the further away from the days of the Apostles we get the weaker the dedication of individuals becomes. One of the last statements Jesus made in the new testament was,' When the Son of Man returns to this earth, shall He find faith?' If you have turned to Jesus as your saviour I don't think you need worry about your salvation. Paul |
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Originally Posted By: Paulwa_dup1 In other words the dedication of that person and the total time spenmt walking with God gave those great miriacles to happen in their lives. It seems to me that the further away from the days of the Apostles we get the weaker the dedication of individuals becomes. Do you believe there have always been(since the time of Christ anyway) and still are some believers who do 'show the signs' of being a believer like Jesus described in these verses? |
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Serpents was meant to mean those pharisees (?spelling) and heathens 'of that day'. I don't think it meant actual snakes and slithering creatures. Mark is considered a stretch by many scholars and parts totally missing from it. Why would you doubt you are a believer, flicka, other than to make a point. And that point is? cus I don't understand where you're coming from or where you are going with it. |
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My point is that if we are to take the Bible, and Christ's words, in a literal sense, I don't know any believers. Nor, have I ever met any. |
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There have been no miracles in the numbers that were with the Apostles in their days that I know of. I am sure there have been some very mighty miracles that have happened but we don't hear of them because they are not in the bible and being spread far and wide. They are just anecdotal evidence. I have heard of many of these life saving miracles where hosts of angels stepped in and turned the tide and saved christians lives. I would consider my experience to have been a real miracle but it is not one that would mean anything to anyone else. People today are just not as dedicated as the Apostles were because they knew the saviour first hand and saw Him after His resurrection and most were martyred for that belief. Paul |
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I don't think those verses were translated properly. |
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There are a few extremist churches that believe in snake handling and drinking poison as a regular part of their church services, but many of their members have died in the process. I also remember Oral Roberts say he was casting out demons from people, and I'm sure there are modern preachers who make the same claim. I guess those folks must take that part of Mark very literally rather than allegorically. Religion can get dangerous and goofy when it's taken to extremes. |
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Originally Posted By: ghoti I guess those folks must take that part of Mark very literally rather than allegorically. Beyond Ronda's mention of 'serpents' representing 'pharisees', how do you read these verses allegorically? How would you explain them, for example? Quote: Religion can get dangerous and goofy when it's taken to extremes. Everything from 9-11 to snake handling. |
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Originally Posted By: ghoti There are a few extremist churches that believe in snake handling and drinking poison as a regular part of their church services, but many of their members have died in the process. I also remember Oral Roberts say he was casting out demons from people, and I'm sure there are modern preachers who make the same claim. I guess those folks must take that part of Mark very literally rather than allegorically. Religion can get dangerous and goofy when it's taken to extremes. I couldn't really make that guess about people because I can't pinpoint where their outward demonstrations of their faith come from, exactly, can you? Can you pinpoint it to one part of the Bible or another? Let's do that for witchcraft or something else then, shall we. Witchcraft is a religion of sorts, no Bible...but still a faith taken seriously by those who call themselves witches (and such). Isn't the use of nature by practitioners of witchcraft what someone would maybe consider silly and possibly dangerous? They set certain herbs on fire and whisk them around a confined area to exterminate the bad karma. Other examples can be thought of. Why isn't it just easier to let people do what they want than to point out all the flaws there and conjure up boogiemen and evil and danger? We all grow up into adults some time or other and so we have that ability to decide for ourselves what we want to do in life, how we want to believe and all. And it seems there is always this driving force of people who ultimately want to lead all their pointing out of others back to the unnecessary and dangerous causes of war outbreaks. Please, give people more credit than that. If they burn their feet on coals....if they get bitten by the snake out of the straw box, I guess....like children....they will learn not to do that again. Matthew and Luke followed Mark, in the Bible, neither one of them knew each other. They both knew Mark but not each other and their writings show it --somewhat different interps. One man's reading of the Bible may say they're lies written there because it doesn't quite add up. I say they're just interpretations - thru eyes that truly wished to see. Truth be told, my shrink mentioned that I was someone who made use of allegory in much of my discussions with him. I don't remember if he told me, upon leaving his services, that That was one of the two hardest things to deal with about me, but he did say it. And he complemented me once when he asked if he could use an allegory that I made up in my head in his book... after he asked me a question (that I don't remember either) . I recall saying, "The battlefield of my mind, ..yada yada..". He wanted to use it. Said no one had put it to him in that manner before. Anywayzzzz, I could make an allegory for this messageboard right now. If I did, there'd be people who would take it badly and call me out as being hateful or vindictive, bitter, etc etc etc. Now, all that is is interpretation...they've NO idea where my heart is nor what or even IF I wished to accomplish anything (at all) with my expression of my silly, perhaps dangerous allegory. later~ |
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The snake handlers and poison drinkers very explicitly quote the passage in Mark as their reason for including those things, so I'm not really guessing. http://www.coastnews.com/bizarre/serpents/serpents.htm http://www.ctlibrary.com/ch/1998/issue58/58h025.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling |
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Originally Posted By: flicka Does that mean you are not a 'believer' also, or do you think these verses are not describing the average believer? I don't think the verses you quoted were meant to describe believers of average or otherwise. I think all that is just trying to show importance of believing in miracles and that all our life we have all kinds of different temptations...I'm stuck on the serpeant thing and the drink and how confronting the temptations and not yielding to them prepares us to believe and grow in strength of belief. Temptation must have followed Jesus too...look how long he was alone in the desert. He had to be tempted by all sorts of creature or such...knowing he shouldn't take of them but hold strong to the process of resisting temptation. And I still don't believe you have to be baptized or else you go to Hell. But I may be surprised when I find out. Anyway, Mark is about miracles, to me, and I believe like ghoti too that it's dangerous to literally take some of this stuff.<---see, I'm growing. |
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Baptism is just an act a person does to say his old life is dead and he is rising anew to follow Jesus. Maybe the water is a symbol of born of water as in physical birth, it shows a spiritual birth. Though I have been baptised when I was 15 years old, and baptised once again with my wife in my 20's, I don't believe baptism is a requirement for salvation. Nothing we do is a requirement other than just accepting the free gift from God. We don't even have to try to be a better person or even think to be a better person, to accept the gift of salvation from Jesus. For all those who go out and handle snakes or drink poison maybe they also need to follow these words of Jesus, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God!" Paul |
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Originally Posted By: Paulwa_dup1 For all those who go out and handle snakes or drink poison maybe they also need to follow thesae words of Jesus, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God!" Paul oo, yeah, really good point, Paul. lol |
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IMO the bottom line is that seizing one one small passage from the Bible and using it as the basis of your belief system is a dangerous thing. |
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This is so cool. I have just lately been more into the Bible. So I couldn't say when you started this thread, Flicka, ...I couldn't think what I wanted to say. With all that has been said here now, and reading ghoti...gets me really thinking! Gotta say, on ghoti's thought I read wrong: seizing was 'seething' at first til I read it again. which...still has me thinking about serpents. lol Now I'm thinking, and gotta say (though I knew it anyway) that you are MUCH the believer, Flicka. And your post could very well have been written for anyone (and IS) who might go thru that process of thinking and come to that conclusion. So they'd stop with the so-called nonsense and if they had a brain in their head...they'd think the whole Bible is for the birds. But back to the serpent, snakes... The serpent could represent that 'bite' or that 'morsel' of knowledge. Take just one bite of the Apple, Adam. And like ghoti said, it's dangerous to just go with one passage and act upon it as though it were the answer to your life. You have to dig more into the Bible to understand and you do that all the time, Flicka. I know dang well you've been to church way way more than me. which, I'm not saying you have to go to church but it helps people to go, sometimes. And you don't go to church to get religion. Religion comes to you. You ARE a believer. So, the serpent bit Adam for taking that one bite (Adam wanted to find out..he wanted the knowledge that the devil seemed to possess: "it's ok, Adam, eat the apple, it will be ok; take just "one bite": you will SEE). The devil (Eve?---nah, she wasn't the devil. The devil was using her, though.) eggs him on to do it and it turned out to be dangerous cus the devil was waiting on the other side of that scene to poison him ....the devil being that serpent. You can lay hands on the devil and cast out the turmoil in your mind with KNOWLEDGE. Knowledge of world happenings and of the bible as well. The Bible is a book, right? It is many books but it is The Book, too. but ya don't physically hold a poisionous snake with the intention of seeing how much faith you have. And if you think that your knowledge comes from finding all the examples in the world, of pain and misery supposedly caused from religion, and that is it, then how much turmoil in your mind is still causing you pain? |
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Originally Posted By: ævory And like ghoti said, it's dangerous to just go with one passage and act upon it as though it were the answer to your life. You have to dig more into the Bible to understand and you do that all the time, Flicka. True. I originally posted this during a discussion with Ronnie about literal belief in the Bible and when/if we should take a passage in that sense. Quote: I know dang well you've been to church way way more than me. which, I'm not saying you have to go to church but it helps people to go, sometimes. And you don't go to church to get religion. Religion comes to you. You ARE a believer. Church is good to a certain extent. I'm glad my parents raised me as a church going, parochial school student that gave me a solid foundation about religion. I raised my children in the same manner -- not necessarily because I expected them to continue on in the church, but to allow them the same type of knowledge. I felt that having such knowledge would better arm them against cults & those kind of experiences. I'm glad I did too because my daughter dated a guy while attending Davis University, who introduced her into a 'cult' type organization. It didn't take her long to recognize signs of something she was not interested in being involved with. On the other hand, being involved with organized religion has had a negative impact on me in that a church body expects its members to have all the same belief as is taught by that church. I don't. I've been questioning church teachings since a pastor told us that heaven was only so many cubits by so many cubits. In fact, it was so small that we better mind our P's & Q's if we wanted to go there. Something just didn't seem right to me and I've had many other similar incidents since. I almost feel that at this time in my life, organized religion can only drive me further from belief. I would never admit that to my family as it might scare them into thinking I've turned atheist, but that simply isn't true. I just don't accept all the dogma from any particular religion. |
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Everything changes, espcailly how we perceive and process passages in the bible. There is some cool things in there and its fun to read sometimes but the bible...even the written word is just a small aspect of a greater reality. Sometimes we get caught up in 1 aspect need to step back take a breather |